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  Agenda, April 7 PHIL GOFF, MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND TRADE PHIL GOFF Good morning Simon. SIMON How has the Leadership Forum enhanced New Zealand's relationship with Australia, what tangible progress has been made? PHIL GOFF Well the tangible progress I think is that you bring together 40 people that are top people from all sectors of New Zealand and Australian society. You have Costello the Treasurer and Downer the Foreign Minister from the Australian side, Jim Anderton and myself on the New Zealand side, we had key people in the business work, key academics, key strategic thinkers. SIMON Okay what came out of it? PHIL GOFF What came out of it was to have a forum where you explored the ideas of how you can create a single economic market in New Zealand, removing barriers to companies working across both countries so that it works as one domestic market. SIMON Taken as read, but what progress has been made towards… PHIL GOFF Oh the progress is the progress that is made at any forum, it is not a decision making body it doesn’t make a decision that is then implemented, it raises the issues, it allows for a full and free discussion of those issues, it then will be taken on to the agendas of the Foreign Ministers and the Treasurers when they meet next and the process moves forward. I think you know you've got key people there from the business world that felt that that was a worthwhile experience they were there last year, they came back this year, they said this year was even better, it's how we can build that relationship on a person to person basis. SIMON Okay that’s all very nice. We're talking a single economic market, common trans Tasman border, what sort of time frame are we likely to see these things happen. PHIL GOFF Well the single economic market is moving ahead and arising out of last year's meeting the Treasurers got together, they're looking at things like banking harmonisation, a way of removing barriers from a range of different things that still stand between the countries. We still have a few hangovers from the past about apples not being imported into Australia, they’ll be dealt with, the wine equalisation tax, that was dealt with, now that wasn’t simply because of the forum last year but the forum contributed by bringing people together to put it on the agenda. So you know it's not a waste of time it's not just a talkfest, but it's not a decision making body, it moves the process forward, it was regarded as constructive and useful and I think it cements the relationship. SIMON When you’re taking decisions that do impact upon the relationship how much do Australian concerns matter now, is it more or is it less relevant than in the past, Australia. PHIL GOFF Well you've got two sovereign countries but they're countries that are very close in terms of values institutions etc. SIMON But is that relationship getting stronger or is it actually weakening? PHIL GOFF I think the relationship is getting stronger and Jim McLay former leader of the National Party made a very interesting comment and in his intervention, it was a formal intervention, he said that he thought the relationship between the two countries at a political level were the best that they'd ever been. Clark and Howard, Goff and Downer, Costello and Cullen, and Alexander Downer told the story, he used to work for Malcolm Fraser as the Prime Minister that at a meeting of the South Pacific Forum in Rotorua where Malcolm Fraser had got the room above Muldoon so he could stomp through the night to annoy his counterpart, I mean the relationship at that point even though there was a Conservative Party in both countries was very poor, the relationship today at a political level I think is as strong as it has ever been. SIMON Why then has Helen Clark indicated that we will sign the ASEAN Non Aggression Treaty while Australia doesn’t want to? PHIL GOFF I think you'll find Australia is moving very rapidly in that direction Simon. SIMON That’s a rapid change of tack. PHIL GOFF It has been something of a change of mind. SIMON Why? PHIL GOFF Well the reason for that in Australia's terms is that the ASEAN countries have made that practically a precondition for attending the East Asia Summit. Australia very much wants to be there. New Zealand had already made the decision that it was moving in that direction, Helen Clark announced that at Vientien last year and the reason is this very briefly, we have an important trading relationship with Asia as a whole, ten out of our 20 biggest trading markets are there, the security issues in Asia are very important to us. We don’t generally sign treaties of friendship it's not the way we go about it, but for the Asian countries that’s very important, it's a sign that we're not simply there for a commercial relationship but we have a commitment to building a more wide ranging relationship and friendship with those countries, that’s not a problem for us. SIMON I want to look again at Australia's flip flop on this because Alexander Downer last year expressed the reservation that signing this treaty could undermine its obligations to the US as an ally. PHIL GOFF Well he did raise that but the truth is… SIMON So that’s not a problem any more? PHIL GOFF Well Japan and South Korea both of whom have very strong military alliances with the United States have already signed the Treaty they didn’t find it a problem, the United States didn’t find it a problem and I think Australia is realising it's not really a problem either. SIMON Australia follows the US into Iraq, we start a free trade deal with China but not US, are New Zealand and Australia headed towards diverging regional alliances? PHIL GOFF No not at all, we were the first country to start the free trade negotiations with China, Australia is following suit. SIMON Yeah but they’ve got one with the US we don’t etc. PHIL GOFF Australia's got one with the United States. SIMON But we're with China. PHIL GOFF No no no no no I think let me reiterate it. Australia is following New Zealand in terms of reaching an agreement with China for a free trade agreement, we hope to follow Australia in reaching a free trade agreement with the United States. We got a huge boost to that this year the National Association of Manufacturers in the United States said that New Zealand was one of the five key countries that the United States should consider next, the President of the Chamber of Commerce there has strongly advocated for New Zealand. We set up a US caucus of congressmen, 58 congressmen wanting to develop a closer relationship with New Zealand, wanting a free trade agreement, interestingly one of the people that signed up to that caucus group is now the United States Trade Representative or will soon be after he's confirmed by Congress. SIMON Nevertheless we've made progress with China, Australia's made progress with the US, it's not the other way around. US political strategist George Freeman of course said last year that New Zealand had a clear strategic Asia or the US and I think he called us – yeah he did he said we're barking mad to cosy up with China. Are we? PHIL GOFF Well he probably could have made the same comment about Australia and I wonder why he didn’t. Australia understands that … SIMON Australia followed the US into Iraq, it's part of the coalition of the willing. It's got a stronger relationship with the US. PHIL GOFF Of course but New Zealand is a sovereign and independent country we make up our own mind and New Zealanders are proud of that. SIMON And is part of making up our mind wanting to go with Asia more? PHIL GOFF We are geographically part of the Asia Pacific region. SIMON Well so is Australia… PHIL GOFF No you will find and one of the debates at the Leadership Forum was clearly Australia seeing the growing importance of China becoming a super power in economic terms and consequently in political terms, it's very much moving in that direction. Both Australia and New Zealand put a high importance on our relationship with the United States. I've had a very close relationship over the last four years with Colin Powell the Secretary of State, hope to develop a similar relationship with the new administration team. SIMON You say this but this is not being born out by evidence, we are not hosting high ranking US military delegations we're hosting a whole plethora of Chinese, high ranking Chinese military delegations. PHIL GOFF That’s simply not true I mean we've for example had the Head of Command of the United States and Korea visit us just late last year. SIMON We've had 25 visits by high ranking Chinese military officials in the last seven or eight years. PHIL GOFF That’s right and China's desire is to develop that relationship, United States military personnel do come here, are welcome here, we have a close working relationship with the United States an operation enduring freedom, I got praise heaped on New Zealand for the role that we were playing in Afghanistan for example by the Secretary of State for the United States, with people in the National Security Council, they acknowledged and they warmly welcome the role that New Zealand as a small country but a responsible country is playing in international affairs. SIMON Let's have a look at the role of the US in just a moment or two but right now China in the South Pacific how concerned are you by its growing influence and presence within the South Pacific, you know 70% of businesses in Tonga in the main street of Tonga are owned by Chinese businessmen. PHIL GOFF Well that’s a decision for Tonga. SIMON And the Cook Islands has got the same scenario. PHIL GOFF And likewise for that country, New Zealand doesn’t tell our neighbours in the Pacific what they should do in terms of their bilateral arrangements with another country. SIMON China is buying influence within the South Pacific quite clearly, 14 votes in the United Nations. PHIL GOFF China and a lot of other countries besides are dialogue partners with the Pacific Forum and yes there are 14 votes in the United Nations that makes it an interesting little power bloc albeit that the countries are often microstates, but if China as Japan, as France, as the European Union want to come into the Pacific work constructively with us in the Pacific, help with development assistance, yeah they're welcome in the Pacific. We're trying to develop our trading relations, trading relations with the Pacific's worth eight to nine hundred million dollars, we want them to develop other relationships that strengthen them economically, we want to strengthen those countries politically we want to ensure stability and security in the Pacific and those other countries can help us in those achievements. SIMON While we're getting closer to China then how concerned are you about China's newly asserted right to use force against Taiwan? PHIL GOFF Well New Zealand's had a very consistent stance on that, we have since 1972 recognised that there is a one China, we have equally consistently said to China that the differences between it and Taiwan need to be settled peacefully and by dialogue, we've said to the Taiwanese the same thing that they ought not to be provocative, we have a relationship with Taiwan in terms of cultural and trade relationship, though not political, it would be a disaster for the Pacific, for the world, if China was to try to resolve that by military means and if it were provoked into doing so by the Taiwanese. SIMON So clearly we have to be very careful with our relationship with the Chinese given their geo political strategy, but let's look at as you indicated before, going back the US can we ever get back in ANZUS or is it now time to move on? PHIL GOFF Well New Zealand has come military alliances with Australia and through the five power defence arrangement. SIMON Is ANZUS a dead duck? PHIL GOFF With ANZUS New Zealand's not breaking its neck to get back into any alliance but we obviously want to have a close relationship with the United States including making that relationship closer in terms of training and working together because we are in the field together in places like Afghanistan. SIMON What then are US officials that you talk to, what are they telling you that they want us to do? PHIL GOFF Well I think that they’ve been quite praising of the contribution that New Zealand has and is making. SIMON What would they like to see us do though. PHIL GOFF But hang on let me just make this point very clear, New Zealand's foreign policy isn't gonna be made in Canberra, it's not gonna be made in London, it's not gonna be made in Washington, certainly not going to be made in Beijing. We will make our own decisions in accordance with our values and our interests. We seek to have good relationships with all countries, the United States the relationship is very strong because we share similar values similar institutions, we don’t share those same values and institutions with China but equally we want to have a good relationship with them because that is good for stability and that is good for prosperity. It doesn’t mean to say that we don’t have differences on things like democracy and human rights, we state those we have free and frank dialogue on those things, we encourage and push China to move in the direction that we believe is appropriate. With the United States there are some areas where we have a disagreement, international criminal court for example or nuclear free New Zealand. Now between families between countries you have differences of agreement, you don’t fall out with your family because you have a disagreement on an issue, you continue to work with them but you don’t sacrifice your own integrity and your own set of values and interests to another country simply because they want you to make that change. SIMON Okay then if you could if you had the golden opportunity to redefine our relationship with the US what would you want from it and what would we be prepared to give? PHIL GOFF Oh I think what we want from it is continuing cooperation in security issues and trade issues. New Zealand and the United States have been as close as any two countries in terms of the WTO negotiations and trade liberalisation. On most issues we have very similar positions. On some issues we have different views but that shouldn’t surprise you and nor should we like Simon Power from the National Party says sacrifice our independence and go wherever our allies want us to go, that is not New Zealand. SIMON He has a record of resiling for that position. PHIL GOFF And I'm very pleased about that. SIMON It is a post cold war world though can you see a Labour government ever agreeing to relax the nuclear legislation? PHIL GOFF No frankly I think that’s part of the New Zealand psyche. SIMON What's wrong with nuclear propelled vessels though, things have moved on from when that legislation was drafted. PHIL GOFF There's only two sets of vessels, there are no commercial vessels that are nuclear propelled, there are only two sets of vessels in the American Navy that have them, aircraft carriers that are generally too big to come here and nuclear submarines which are probably the only remaining vessels that continue to be nuclear armed. There is no pressing strategic need to have nuclear powered vessels here and New Zealand as in some parts of the United States has put it up as I think quite a symbolic stance that we're clean green, we are not nuclear, other countries make the decision to be nuclear in terms of power, that’s not New Zealand, why would we undertake even a small level if it weren't necessary. SIMON As you say though it's a symbolic stance that undermines our relationship, you repeal section 11, you’re allowed nuclear propelled vehicles and it's all fine. It would be a really positive signal to the US. PHIL GOFF I think New Zealanders see that issue not only as important in environmental terms but important in symbolic terms about New Zealand's sovereignty for both of those reasons. Certainly a Labour led government won't make the change and almost certainly a National Party won't have the courage to say before an election that it would make the change. SIMON You've also talked recently of New Zealand troops working alongside NATO troops, what would that entail? PHIL GOFF Well we've worked alongside NATO of course for a long in Bosnia Herzegovina, we've worked together in a peacekeeping and a security role, NATO is now playing an increasing role in Afghanistan including working with the provincial reconstruction teams, New Zealand runs a provincial reconstruction team, we've got 120 Defence Force personnel in Bamian, so we would be working, I think increasingly working with NATO. NATO now takes in all – practically all I think of the 25 European Union countries, we have a close relationship with Europe, very similar values and again institutions and traditions, it's natural for us to work cooperatively with NATO, there is a small possibility that NATO may also be involved in a peacekeeping capacity if peace can be found between Israelis and Palestinians and we'd be very happy to work alongside them in that context. SIMON How would you reconcile the irony of nuclear free New Zealand working alongside three nuclear powered NATO? PHIL GOFF Oh that’s not a problem, we've worked alongside, we have vessels from France, vessels from the United Kingdom, vessels from China coming to New Zealand. SIMON Legislation says we shouldn’t aid and abet anybody having nuclear weapons… PHIL GOFF No we don’t want nuclear weapons on our soil or in our ports, that does not stop us and it would be absolutely foolish to say it stopped us co-operating in other areas with unclear weapon states, we encourage those nuclear weapon states that not only do we want non proliferation we also want progressive disarmament, that’s fine that consistent with our principles, it doesn’t mean to say we don’t have a relationship with them, that would be sill. SIMON Minister of Foreign Affairs Phil Goff thank you very much for you time today.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SIMON Welcome back, joining us are commentators Fran O'Sullivan and Nick Venter. The Australian Leadership Forum- a lot of hot air or a really substantive genuine forum? FRAN I think it was a substantive genuine forum because this time I think there was a really strong debate internally and I had the privilege of sitting in on some of it last weekend, but I do take issue with Mr Goff's claim that genuine progress is being made. One the banking issue, there were all the key players around the table regulators from both sides, banks from both sides plus also Peter Costello the Australian Treasurer, but absence of Michael Cullen. Michael Cullen should have been there, you know there's been some dispute about why or why not he wasn’t there, I was told by his office that the Prime Minister had decided he had to stay home and be Acting Prime Minister, you know election coming up and all the rest. SIMON Chief fire fighter. FRAN Yeah but then we get a note from the Prime Minister's Press Secretary to the Herald later in the week to say oh no no it was up to him you know, the Prime Minister had left it to him. Well frankly not good enough guys, the Prime Minister's Press Secretary didn’t even know it was on when I rang for comment. Now this is our key major you know trading and foreign affairs relationship should have been there, gotta also set a timetable and an action plan and tick off some of these big agenda items, like banking like all the regulatory stuff so that these people come back and so that progress is made, and as a point of comparison we're actually moving faster with and FTO with China than we are you know doing what we're doing next door. SIMON Do you see that we're heading in different directions Nick or are we always gonna be joined at the hip? NICK No we are heading in different directions on a number of fronts and I think that this particular – the business development, there is a concern that where we're making progress are on issues that Australia wants to make progress with, so particularly for example the single banking regulator is the biggest example of that, and the message coming out of Australia, I wasn’t at the conference like Fran but the message seems to be that if we don’t make progress on the things the Australians want to make progress on they will turn their attention to Asia and so we're able to make progress on things that are not really to our advantage, it's not to New Zealand's advantage to have our banking system regulated from Australia. SIMON Is a single economic market to our advantage? NICK Well only if it improves the regulatory structures we have here and there are some of the Australian systems aren’t as good as some of ours and so we could end up for the sake of getting closer to Australia we could end up… FRAN Oh I would take issue with that because I think one of the things that is quite obvious from the forum and also from discussions with senior business people in Australia is, they actually see this as an opportunity to attack Australia's more heavy handed regulation, because they can say hullo John Howard's got control, senate got control of parliament, so you know this is a perfect way under the guise of getting together with us to actually attack some of this heavy handed regulation strip it away, and I think also in terms of the single banking regulator the debate's moved on from that, we're now talking about a joint regulator and have been frankly since the Costello Cullen meeting back in February, so that’s an old battle. NICK But can we have the joint regulator based in New Zealand rather than in Australia? FRAN Well I think what you probably see is a compromise situation where you have a tier over the top and then arms on either side and that seems to be where the debate is going at the moment. SIMON Oh yes, watch this space and let alone the relationship with the US, NATO etc, and China's presence.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SIMON This week Winston Peters identified two Iraqis living in New Zealand with ties to Saddam Hussein, the government's identified one. A review of all high risk visa applications dating back two years is now underway, no surprisingly it's generated a lot of comment including this email on Rodney Hide's website. The question alongside it was the people shown in this picture are (a) preparing plans for an invasion of Kuwait (b) examining the results of weapons of mass destruction testing or (c) helping each other fill out New Zealand immigration forms. Well all joking aside the Immigration Service is having to reassess the way that it operates. Immigration Minister Paul Swain is with me now from Wellington. Hullo Mr Swain. PAUL Good morning Simon. SIMON You were quick to take an expedient political decision to expel former Iraqi Minister Amil Al Kashali, what exactly did he do wrong? PAUL Well from the information that we have he was involved in the Saddam Hussein regime, he came here as a visitor and in the end really the thing that we were really concerned to make sure was that people like this don’t come as visitors in the future. SIMON Hang on, you say people like this, he was a minister in 1979 to 1982, he was Minister of Agriculture and Agrarian Reform and New Zealand we were very friendly when we wanted to sell lamb to Iraq, what did he do wrong? PAUL Well I think the information that we have was that his involvement in the Saddam regime is more than you've just described and I think what has been shown up by this is two things, firstly that we don’t really have good enough policy around this kind of thing and the second thing is that it's highlighted some issues about processing these kinds of applications offshore which is why we're in stages going to bring that processing back onshore. SIMON Do the SIS consider Mr Al Kashali a security risk? PAUL No they don’t. SIMON So why is he being ejected? PAUL Well the problem is Simon with the policy essentially is that we test for character and that usually is around people with criminal convictions on the one hand. The SIS get involved in a lot of these applications but the security test clearly is quite high and what that means is that somebody for example would be considered to be a terrorist. Now these two are not considered in that category. SIMON So what criteria is being applied to expel him? PAUL At the moment it's basically around an undesirability category. SIMON And how do you define undesirability? PAUL Well in the end it'll be a subjective test. SIMON At the moment is that subjectivity purely because he's a political embarrassment? PAUL No, it's because he was involved with a regime and our view is that people like him shouldn’t be in New Zealand and as we move forward we're actually working across agencies in government to try and make sure we've got a decent definition, it's going to come down to crimes against humanity, war crimes, people involved either actively or passively or people who have been involved officially in those regimes either currently or prior to for example Saddam going. SIMON So the mere fact he had a role in Saddam Hussein's regime taints him by association even though he left that more than 23 years ago? Is he tainted by association is that it? PAUL No it's a question of whether – obviously there's going to be a difference between officials, just ordinary public servants but if you’re a diplomat an active mouthpiece or if you've been a cabinet minister or something of that ilk then there will need to be an ability for us to stop those people coming to New Zealand because the problem really is that our legislation goes back to 87 at a time when in fact – or prior to 9/11, and so what's happened is that many of the decisions being made under that legislation are part of the fact of an era in New Zealand which is much changed now post 9/11, and this is what we're reflecting in this policy gap. We've found a policy gap and want to fill that, but in the end the act itself is under review because there are some major things we're gonna have to look at that as well. SIMON Can you guarantee that the problem has been plugged that there are no more undesirable Iraqis of this nature or other undesirables in the country? PAUL Well that’s what the review team is now looking at Simon, but I can tell you this that there are two and a half million tourists coming to New Zealand, the Immigration Service process over a half a million visas each year. Of course we're gonna tighten up the system but there are people who will cheat lie and defraud to get to countries not just New Zealand, it will be impossible to absolutely give an absolute guarantee and assurance, but we've taken steps to really close the gap that we've found now. SIMON Do you accept though that this shows major failings on the part of the Immigration Service? PAUL Well as I said before the Immigration Service by and large get it right, I mean you don’t hear of … SIMON Okay by and large but do you accept that this scandal this week this ongoing scandal one Iraqi today, two the next day, five the next one more etc, does this show major failings on the part of the department? PAUL Well as I said I mean the announcements I made was on the advice I have but I'm not willing to dwell on that now because that was last week, next week we're working on trying to make sure that we fix the problem, as the Minister of Immigration that’s my responsibility to fix the problem. SIMON Okay but isn't the appropriate action for a department with a major failing of this nature and a corresponding loss of public confidence isn't the appropriate action for the minister responsible at least as a signal to resign his portfolio, will you? PAUL No, no not at all. What my job … SIMON It's not the appropriate action? PAUL Well no Simon, I mean the reality is that we've found some policy gaps and we've actually identified an issue with processing. In the end more and more applications around the world are needed to be processed in New Zealand, it's because here in New Zealand we are much more aware of the sensitivities and the politics in order to be able to make these decisions so that we can do it here and what you'll see more and more over time, more and more of those decisions are being returned to New Zealand to be made by New Zealanders on shore. SIMON Okay let's bring the panel in at this point Nick Venter. NICK Minister, the Immigration Service is being kicked all over the show on this one, what did they actually do wrong, they followed the rules, the checked these people had police clearances, they checked with the Security Intelligence Service, why are they getting the blame for this? PAUL Well I think in the case for example of the Ambassador or the Diplomat he did declare that he was who he was, there were checks done and as I said before those checks were around security risk, and of course that test is very high. What I said was that alarm bells should have been going off and it should have been kicked upstairs for a closer look, it that had been processed in New Zealand a lot of those alarm bells would have been ringing. FRAN Minister, you talked about new legislation to put new categories around some of these immigration applications, how are you gonna reconcile this alleged status of this minister which you seem to indicate may have had something to do with war crimes in the past with the fact that a number of the leaders of our major trading partners could arguably have the same things levelled against them? Do we ban them as well or are they okay? PAUL Well I think that what we need and the work that we're doing at the moment is identifying this category where people have been involved in war crimes or acts against humanity, and we're working on the definition of that now, it's very close to being defined… FRAN Was this minister involved in war crimes or not? SIMON Was he in charge of chemical weapon production? PAUL Well the information that we have is that he was actively involved in the Saddam Hussein regime. FRAN But was he involved in the extermination of Kurds, that’s the key question? PAUL Well it's once again as far as for example under the articles around the Refugee Convention you don’t have to have committed war crimes yourself to be not acceptable to New Zealand you can be an associated person of that, so you can be a passive member but if you’re associated with you can still be refused, and so the issue is making sure firstly that we've got a good definition around us. FRAN But this is back 20 years and we've dealt with those people in between this is only a recent political embarrassment surely and an election pending. PAUL Oh no it's not I mean I think that what it's highlighted is that we have a gap in our policy and we are working on that, what it's highlighted is there's some processing issues offshore and we're dealing with that and we've got a review going on, I think that you know we've taken some good steps over the last few days to try and fill some of these gaps and we move forward. SIMON Minister, Paul Swain, thank you very much for appearing on the programme today. Coming up next an Iraqi New Zealander who'd be happy to see at least one of his former countrymen go home.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SIMON Dr Munjid Umara is the President of the Auckland Refugee Council, an Iraqi himself Dr Umara has lived in New Zealand for five years and heard what Minister Swain had to say. Mr Umara welcome to the programme. In the New Zealand Herald on Wednesday you’re quoted as being horrified that Mr Al Kashali is in New Zealand and you’re quoted as saying when the Bath Party came into power in 1963 he was one of the militia which killed all those Iraqis in 1963, what do you know of his role there? DR UMARA He is very old senior member in the Bath Party, since 1950s, he is very active, he and other members of the party are responsible about all what happen in Iraq in that time. I just give example. SIMON Tell us what happened in that time. DR UMARA I don’t like to speak about the people who was killed, or the womens who were sexually abused in the detention time, or about thousands of people who were in the prison for long years, many years, I like to give example about what happened to the Dean of Baghdad University, professor, scientific, well known not only in Iraq, in America and all over the world. He was the first Dean of Baghdad University. In February 1963 a group of the Bathist students went to his home to capture him, they beat him in front of his wife and children then they collect all his scientific work and they start burn it in front of him. He ask them please don’t burn it, it is scientific work it is not political, send it to any university to any magazine to publish it, it is for the humanity. They burn it all they take him to the detention camp, again they tortured him, they humiliated him, then they forced him to stand in the hall sewerage hall in the detention camp many hours. All the American scientists all the people who know him ask the American government, as the Iraqi government if Iraqi government they don’t want this person, the science the humanity want him. After huge pressure they release him and they allowed him to go to America and America during the medical screening they found he is very serious sick and he need to change his blood frequently time after time, to live as much as possible to write again what he remember from his scientific work. This is an example. SIMON And you were saying the Mr Al Kashali was a key member of the people responsible for this? DR UMARA He was from the top of the Bath Party, he was very active, his sister was very active, his family active. SIMON What has all this meant to ordinary law abiding Iraqi and other refugees in the country are they being treated with greater public suspicion now? DR UMARA Is it fair to put Mr Kashali in the same category with the refugees who left Iraq and left behind everything? They spent a lot of money for the smugglers to go to a safe country, is it right to put them in the same category? Has Mr Kathali apologised to Iraqi people about what happened during his time or Saddam Hussein. He worked with Saddam Hussein all his life till the last day of the regime, he support him since 1950s till now, maybe he support him more longer. SIMON You’re saying Mr Al Kashali was a key member. DR UMARA Yes. SIMON Are other immigrants in New Zealand being placed under greater pressure, are legitimate immigrants to New Zealand being placed under greater pressure as a result of what's happened this week? DR UMARA Believe me all the Iraqi people they arrive to New Zealand to start a new life peaceful life, but nowadays they feel very bad, very distressed because all this situation because all the news focus on them, they like to live peaceful, they like to forget all what happened to them. It is very disgraceful history of the Bath Party. They must apologise about that. SIMON Mr Umara thank you very much for coming on the programme. Copyright to Front Page Ltd but may be used PROVIDED attribution is made to TVOne and Agenda |
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