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  AGENDA SIMON Last week Tau Henare received a 29th placing on the National Party list, a placing that’s likely to guarantee his return to parliament. The former New Zealand First MP and Leader of Maori Pacific lost his seat in 1999. Minister of Maori Affairs from 96 to 99 Henare has been quoted as saying if Don Brash wants me behind the end of a broom that’s the job I'll do. He's with me now. Is that the job you'll do? TAU Well if he wants me to do it, yes. SIMON You'll do anything he says? TAU Oh basically I mean he's the leader. SIMON He's the leader and you just do whatever he says? TAU Well at the end of the day I mean you’re there as a list member, I mean you owe your allegiance to the party, to the list ranking committee, you don’t want to disappoint those people. SIMON Well let's talk about your allegiance to the party, let's go through your political CV. TAU Absolutely. SIMON As a young man a supporter of Mana Motuhake and the Alliance. TAU No not the Alliance. I want to make it quite clear… SIMON Mana Motuhake's part of the Alliance though. TAU Well not in those day's it wasn’t and when Matt was the leader, Matiu Rata was the leader I mean that was way before the Alliance was ever formed. SIMON So not Alliance but Mana Motuhake. TAU I was never a financial member. SIMON Okay, fine distinction. TAU I mean basically what it was is that I would vote anybody except Labour. SIMON Alright were you a union worker in the mid 80s? TAU Yeah. SIMON Okay New Zealand First from 93 to 99. TAU Yeah. SIMON Maori Pacific. TAU Yeah. SIMON National. 2002-2005. TAU There's not a lot of difference actually. SIMON Not a lot of difference between all of those? TAU Well I suppose the biggest difference would have been Mana Motuhake, but not a lot of difference between New Zealand First, I mean most of the people in New Zealand First actually came out of National background so I can't see the – you know the big point. SIMON Well you’re all over the political spectrum I think is the point. TAU No no, I don’t agree with you, centre right absolutely but none of those parties, even some of those people in Mana Motuhake in the early days would not be classed as left leaning. SIMON Who do you represent, who do you consider yourself as representing in parliament, Maori or National. TAU Well National actually because if I get in there on the list it is those National voters that allow for list candidates to get in, so that’s who I'm representing. Not Maori, I'm not standing in a Maori seat for a Maori party I'm standing as a candidate in Te Atatu on the list and if I get in on the list it's the National Party members and those who vote National that I represent. SIMON But you were a strong advocate for Maori in the past, inside National, do you represent Maori within National. TAU Oh absolutely not I mean I haven't been elected by Maori or anybody to do that, I'm just a person, I just happen to have the genealogical ties that make me Maori. SIMON So that’s just irrelevant now, your Maoridom is irrelevant? TAU Well I believe it is, you know I'm a representative of people who have faith in my ability to represent them, end of story. SIMON But it changes doesn’t it, it changes who you've represented in the past doesn’t it, I mean you’re representing one constituency to another to another and while you say they're all the same area in the past you've said I represent Maori, now you’re saying I don’t represent Maori. TAU Well it would have been horrible for me if I was the member for Tai Tokorau which is a Maori seat saying well actually I don’t represent Maori I represent Chinese, I mean how silly would that be. SIMON Yeah but that’s very very specific isn't it, you say back then I was this and so I represented them and now I'm somebody else and I represent different people. TAU I'm not somebody else. SIMON That’s actually what you said, I represent Maori, sure you represent Maori in the literal sense of Te Tai Tokorau but you represent Maori beyond that surely as well. TAU No absolutely not, in those days I was the Minister of Maori Affairs, I was the holder of a Maori seat, how could I not represent those people. I think you make the point that I've done this huge turnaround. I mean if you have a look at my genealogical lines, my great grandfather was a Tory from way back, even before the Tory party began. SIMON So you think he'd be proud of you now? TAU Absolutely. SIMON Would he have been proud of you in New Zealand First? TAU Absolutely. SIMON In Maori Pacific? TAU Absolutely. SIMON Would he been proud of you representing the Alliance? TAU Well that’s a stupid question, I mean because I never was a member of the Alliance. How can I represent people in Alliance. SIMON In Listener you said in December 1993 it vaguely crossed my mind to seek – when you were asked whether you considered seeking the Alliance nomination you said it vaguely crossed my mind to seek the Labour nomination as well a couple of years ago. You know you said that doesn’t apply any more. No Labour, no Alliance. TAU I think you hit it on the head before, it's about representing people. I mean if you look at my career before when I was with the union I represented people. SIMON You change constituencies according to convenience. TAU No hang on, that’s a bit unfair, just like you would change constituencies if you sought a job with TV3, I mean it's exactly the same, it's about representing people, and if I can represent people better than the next person people will vote for me. SIMON But you’re happy for those people that you represent to change election by election. TAU Well hang on you have asked that question in the list ranking committee and then say well are you happy with this person representing these people. SIMON So some people might – you might say a chameleon but some people might see hypocrite here. So you represented Maori, now you represent National, you represented unions now your representing big business. How do you control all that. TAU I must be a hell of a guy. SIMON Convenience or expediency, political opportunity, what is this? TAU Well I mean at the end of the day what it is is about representing people and if people have faith in you then they’ll put you there if they don’t they’ll wave goodbye. SIMON What happens when they put you there and then they find that next time up you’re representing somebody else. TAU That’s totally unfair, that is totally unfair, I've never changed my colours. SIMON You have, you represented unions and now your in business. TAU What do you mean represent business? National is about representing people. It's not about representing business, just like the Labour Party isn't about representing workers only. That is a load of rubbish and I'm quite astounded that you've said that. SIMON Let's look at some of your motivations, and I'll go through again from past records, you said you wanted to be an MP since you were about 12, the cut and thrust of the debating chamber appealed. You said you were determined to get into parliament by hook or by crook, the appearance I'm getting though is that you want to be there regardless, it's all about power. TAU I thought you would have said that earlier on really that my boyhood dream was to be in parliament. SIMON Yeah, but at any cost? TAU No, no, that’s what somebody else said, that’s what somebody else said, keep it in context. SIMON I did say that’s exactly what I said. No doubt I have ambitions, Sunday News, July 1996, again power at any cost, does it matter who you represent or do you just want to be there? TAU It's about representing people, I want to represent people because I think I can. SIMON But it's not the same people each time. TAU Well what is the difference, you tell me what the difference – hang on – what's the difference between Maori voters say in 1993 and voters today? SIMON You tell me. TAU Well I've just asked you this question. SIMON It's my interview though you’re here to answer the questions. TAU No hang on that doesn’t wash with me, I don’t buy into that, you can quiz everything but you get away with it. SIMON No what's happening is you’re making assertions in the past and now we're looking at a period … TAU No you are. You've made the assertion that Maori voters when I was MP for Tai Tokorau, are absolutely different now, there are actually a lot of voters who voted in 93 and 96 who are actually still supportive of me and also the National Party. SIMON I want to ask you this though, the Listener says and it quotes you as saying that you have firm belief in tinorangatiratanga the right of self determination. Do you still have a firm belief in that. TAU Absolutely. Self determination is about making your own choices, making personal choices, deciding on where my children go to school, fits pretty well with where I am at the moment. SIMON Does the National Party support you in that? TAU Oh absolutely. SIMON National Party wants to support your self determination. TAU You talk to Bill English and you will find that I have a right to send my kids to whatever school I want, I see that as self determination., SIMON “One standard of citizenship for all New Zealanders” - National Party policy, that’s consistent with self determination? It's not one standard surely? TAU Well why isn't one standard of citizenship the same as being able to determine where your children want to go, why isn't it, because I see it is. SIMON National is the enemy, the Listener May 1996, North and South June 1998, the Tory attitude is still born to rule in colonial. The National Party only seem interested in looking after white middle class New Zealanders, this is your … TAU When did I say that – 1996. SIMON Yeah. 96-98. TAU We fought an election in 1996 not 98, I was actually a…. SIMON North and South 98 'the Tory attitude is still born to rule in colonial'. TAU Oh absolutely yeah but the issue in 1996 was we were out to win as New Zealand First. SIMON So what you’re saying is the statements only apply at the time they were made. TAU I think you have to put it into context. Simon you’re coming up with statements but not really putting them into context. The context of that was I was an MP for Tai Tokorau for New Zealand First not National. SIMON The context I'm trying to display is that you can say one thing one time and just in a few years you can just move on past it and say it doesn’t matter. TAU Well I'm a person who does move on, I'm not bitter and twisted about my past as some people are. What I am is that I think I have skills to represent people as it shows in your research. SIMON Not a consistent group of people though. TAU You’re the one that’s determining that those people are different than the constituents today, I don’t believe they are. Any more questions? SIMON Oh yeah heaps of them, heaps and heaps. Don Brash said we have no time for suggestions that Maori New Zealanders should be treated differently from other New Zealanders on grounds of race and I take you back, that’s inconsistent with your belief in tinorangatiratanga though. TAU Absolutely not, I do not believe that, why can't a Pakeha person or a Chinese person have tinorangatiratanga? Why can't they? It is about – tinorangatiratanga to me is all about and I've said it before, is all about determining your own path, your own future and so you’re saying to me that Pakeha people can't have it so that must make our policy inconsistent with tinorangatiratanga, it's not. SIMON National billboard on beaches, Labour - Iwi, National – Kiwi, are you comfortable with that? TAU Absolutely, I thought it was funny, I thought it was cool. I'm not one of those people who is going to attack to cause something racist as you think I might. SIMON No you’re putting ideas in my mouth now that’s not what I said at all. TAU Oh no it's not, but I know what you’re asking. SIMON Well how do you justify National’s proposal to scrap the Maori seats then? TAU Oh easily. SIMON Because you’re no longer an advocate for Maori? TAU Oh! Well you just answered my question then, I mean should I …. SIMON Well basically what you said earlier though, you don’t represent Maori you represent National now. TAU Absolutely and Maori in National, Pakeha in National, Samoan in National, Chinese in National, everybody, National people. SIMON Employment law, new Labour legislation Henare said publicly must ensure that wage rises were ring fenced, meaning if the union won a wage rise union members would get it, non union freeloaders would no longer cream the benefits won by unions. You think a credible member of the Nats can stand by that? TAU Ah absolutely, and also vice versa, those that aren’t members of the union if they are getting ahead why should union members get the same deal. SIMON It's opposed to what National says though isn't it? I mean you also said in 1996 Henare would enshrine personal grievance rights and access to collective bargaining in employment legislation. That’s immediately contrary to National policy isn't it? TAU Enshrining personal grievances is not but I agree that the collective bargaining thing is. SIMON You can be a bit more fluid on that one can you? TAU Oh well fluid, I mean hey I'm a member of the National Party I have to follow the rules. SIMON Mr Henare has made a virtue of scaring centrist Pakeha voters – the Press October 1998. What’s National strategy in using you then? If you scare centrist Pakeha voters why are you here? TAU I dunno cos you asked me. SIMON No, why are you standing in number 29 on National's list? TAU Because the centrist party the only centrist party has asked me. SIMON Even though you've been accused of scaring centrist voters. TAU Yeah well who's doing the accusing? SIMON Lots of people by the look of things. TAU Well who accused me of that? SIMON That’s the Press in 1998. TAU Well there you go. SIMON Okay last question for you. Who's going to be Maori Affairs spokesman, you or Georgina Te Heu Heu. TAU I wouldn’t have the faintest idea. No currently it's Gerry Brownlee and I'm quite happy with that. I mean Gerry's doing a good job. SIMON Tau Henare, National candidate number 29 on the list thanks very much for joining us on Agenda today. TAU Thank you.
SIMON Joining us are our guest commentators Bryce Johns and Mike Hutcheson. Tau Henare, National candidate number 29 on the list, he's headed to parliament. What do you think? MIKE Well I think he actually demonstrated some real essential elements of leadership. I read a book recently called Leading Minds by Howard Gardner, and Gardner basically postulated that the good leaders have one thing in common and he analysed people from Maggie Thatcher to Mahatma Ghandi to Sloan from General Motors, and basically he said that the thing that good leaders have in common is the ability to tell cogent stories, and I think that although as you pointed out Tau has hopped around a bit, that’s not necessarily in conflict with most voters who have voted many different ways in many different elections, so but they feel that he tells a good story and he's true to himself. The real problem with leadership comes when leaders seem to be hypocritical. SIMON Isn't that part of the problem don’t we see hypocrisy here – you say it's fluid but you vote for somebody based on what they're going to stand for and if that changes in the next three years you feel like you've been cheated. MIKE No I'm not ideologically driven so I'll vote for somebody who I believe is gonna act in the best interests of the country rather than the best interests of me. SIMON Is that the way it's gone Bryce, are we now looking at presidential style are we looking at voting for the people as opposed to the policy or party? BRYCE I think there's a big element of that and you know when Don Brash and National have been weighing up whether or not to include him on the list no doubt that’s a big factor, is this guy going to be a turn on or a turn off because the Dirty Dog Shadze, the arrogance of when he was last in parliament will still be in the forefront of a lot of people's memories, but he's now exposed to on a National stage with his radio show which he's been doing up until recently, you can clearly see that you know he's changed in life from a young idealist with a lot of very strong opinions on a whole range of subjects, he's older he's more conservative, he does clearly to me fit the National brand now. SIMON There's a perceptible maturity about him now isn't there, the anger seems to have abated. BRYCE Yeah that’s right and you could see that in the way that that whole debate with you went. You know five ten years ago it would have been a shouting match and I would have fancied him having a swing at you perhaps, but you know thankfully these days that doesn’t happen with him, and it is a growing sign of maturity. SIMON He's learned a lot from Winston Peters hasn’t he, about the charisma, about the importance of being a strong person as opposed to someone who just abides by policy, I mean is this one of the weaknesses of Bill English as a leader. MIKE Oh yeah very much there's a charisma free zone there, but I think that also Bill Clinton a great example, no matter how bad Bill had been people forgave him because he was – there is a reciprocal of trust, if you trust others they’ll trust you, now he constantly went back when he was talking with you about representing people, representing people, he wasn’t representing ideology, he wasn’t representing a fixed position, he was about doing the best for people and as human beings we recognise that in others, and you can't fake it, you can't fake that over time. BRYCE The small worry for me though is before they got into parliament the first time round him in New Zealand First, the tight five, the famous tight five, I didn’t get a sense that they were going to turn out that way, the arrogance, the Dirty Dog Shadze and it was the taste of power to me that turned them into that sort of rat pack if you like. He's had a taste of that once do we really know what he's going to be like second time round, you get that power again, you know I don’t believe for a second that he's not going to be representing Maori you know because he's got great knowledge in that area, he's got some mana. SIMON He just has to tread delicately within the National caucus on it. BRYCE Well he certainly, he's going to have to do that definitely. SIMON Is he power at any cost in the tradition of say Muldoon and Winston Peters you might think. Power at any cost can you be that fluid with policy? MIKE No I don’t think he is, I think you detect the genuine liking for other people, I don’t think that he wants to wield power in the sense of oppressing or dominating, I think he genuinely wants to represent people. BRYCE Yeah I think he probably likes power more than wants to wield it. MIKE Oh yeah he likes being there, yeah. SIMON Don’t they all. Copyright to Front Page Ltd but may be used PROVIDED attribution is made to TVOne and Agenda
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