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  AGENDA JULY 16- LONDON'S TERROR Interviewed by SIMON DALLOW SIMON When Algerian refugee Ahmed Zaoui arrived in New Zealand in late 2002 he was deemed a risk to national security and spent the next two years in prison. Released on bail in December 2004 he's still the subject of a judicial security review. Coincidentally on the same day last week that news broke of the London terrorist bombings Zaoui gave a talk about religious fundamentalism at Victoria University. I spoke with him yesterday. Not all Muslims are terrorists but many terrorists are Muslim, why? AHMED ZAOUI Yeah, it's a good format. I think that the issue is not like black and white, Islam never claim terrorism or ask their fellow to be a terrorist, is not advocate of terrorist at all. Islam preach peace and tolerance and understanding, you know that the first religion hope now all the religion, it's Islam, Islam recognise Christianity, recognises Judaism and other religion. I think that there are many factor on which this phenomenon geopolitic, politic, economic, social. Maybe you ask me about some people who commit terrible art and live in the western country and they have citizenship. I think it's complicated - complicated phenomenon, we must deal with them in wisdom. SIMON How then can they, terrorists, claim to represent Islam? AHMED ZAOUI Yeah it's a wrong interpretation of Islam and what I know from this phenomena, the most or maybe the majority of the followers has no education, has not understanding of Islam, has not understanding of politic, has not understanding of what's happening in the world. SIMON What does the Koran and Islam generally say about the use of violence and terrorist action? No, never, never we consider as a represent of Islam, and in this matter there are a problem, Islam is not like Christianity, have a clergy who can represent them. We have this problem maybe before we said that's a strong thing that we don't have a clergy to represent Islam, but I think the violence is rejected by all the scholar, I don't know one scholar consider it has a knowledge of Islam advocate of violence, because violence it's adversity, deceit, it's terrible deep, can't do because Islam preach to protect animal protect child, protect oppressed in the time of war, if the war it's allowed in such situation like when you try to defend yourself as a self defence Islam ask make a rule of an etiquette rule for war, don't kill child, don't kill old men, don't kill women, don't kill animal, don't cut down the tree, that's the advice of prophet, that's the core of Islam. I think that the core of Islam to preach peace and harmony and tolerance, because Islam ask people to involve in the peace, there are many verses in the Koran ……. SIMON Despite the Koran prohibiting the taking of innocent life are so many Muslims, socalled Muslims prepared to take life in the name of Allah? AHMED ZAOUI I ask you to give me some name please. SIMON Well Al Qaeda for instance, they call themselves Islamic terrorists. AHMED ZAOUI Al Qaeda Bin Laden is not a scholar he's a businessman, Al Zarqwa he's in medicine, I ask you to give me a name of these people who preach violence. SIMON You're saying that they are not Muslim? AHMED ZAOUI Muslims or no Muslims that's another question is not there, I am not a judge, God would judge people who is a Muslim…. SIMON They claim to be Muslims. AHMED ZAOUI Yeah they claim to be a Muslim we can't talk about the Islamic terrorism because Islam it's had no connection with terrorism or such terrible action. SIMON We hear often of Jihad, holy war that Islam confers some sort of legitimacy on those who undertake these extremist actions, how true is that? SIMON Do you think Muslim terrorists could appear in New Zealand? AHMED ZAOUI I hope not, and I don't think so because I perceive in New Zealand that the Muslim community live in harmony with the New Zealand people, some of them they become citizenship and they preaching peace and tolerance. I met many leaders after the bombing of London and all the Muslim they condemn terrorist, they condemn terrorist and preaching - preaching peace, and they think that New Zealand is part of Europe and Arabic country, Only today I have been in the mosque and I listen with the Father Chris who attended with me in this Friday meeting, the speech in Arabic and in English and it was a wonderful speech. Ahmed Zaoui thank you for your time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SIMON Last year the director of our Security Intelligence Service, Richard Woods, said there were Islamic extremists in New Zealand. Given what's just happened in London where British born Muslims were tragically revealed to be terrorists as deadly as any Baghdad suicide bomber Mr Woods' comments raised the question as to whether we too could become a terrorist target. To answer that question we have in Wellington today the New Zealand Police Assistant Commissioner for Counter Terrorism, Jon White, and a Security Analyst from Victoria University's Centre for Strategic Studies, Andrew Renton-Green, and here in the studio in Auckland, Javed Kahn, President of the New Zealand Federation of Islamic Associations. Welcome to you all gentlemen. My first question is to Andrew Renton-Green in Wellington. Andrew how threatened is New Zealand, how much of a security risk to we face? ANDREW RENTON-GREEN, Security Analyst SIMON Jon White, do you agree with that? JON WHITE, Asst Police Commissioner SIMON What do you mean by that Jon? JON WHITE Well there are countries represented in New Zealand whose settings around terrorism are muCH higher than New Zealand's and we must be mindful of ensuring their safety. The other point is that when New Zealanders travel offshore they are indistinguishable from other higher target countries and there's a very real risk of them being caught up in terrorist acts. SIMON Andrew how much of a threat is the regional Islamic power in Indonesia, this is an area of your expertise I know. How exposed are we to potential socalled Islamic terrorism from Indonesia? ANDREW I think we're at a less risk say than Australia who is obviously geographically closer and has far greater links with Indonesia than perhaps we do. There are Indonesians living in New Zealand of course, not all of them are Islamic, and I think one has to try and understand the nature of Indonesian Islam compared with say the Middle Eastern or Pakistani form of Islam, they are very different, one being slightly more tolerant, one being slightly more doctrinaire. SIMON You've got Jamal Islam though of course. ANDREW Indeed that is quite correct there is also Laskar Juldula, there's also a couple of other fairly radical groups that are active in Indonesia and indeed throughout South East Asia and that is a worry because there are established links between these groups and Al Qaeda. SIMON To both of you do you know if there are any representatives of those organisations here? JON WHITE We know, just going back to your comments from the Director of Security that there are people in New Zealand who sympathise with the aims of terrorist groups and indeed their tactics, they're not present in large numbers but nevertheless they are present in New Zealand. SIMON What sort of numbers? JON WHITE I'm not prepared to go into the detail of that Simon but as I say it's a matter of concern for us. I would say though in the same breath that to our knowledge there are no active terrorist cells in New Zealand. SIMON What degree of knowledge do you have of that community here? Are you satisfied with the level of intelligence you've got? JON WHITE I think it's a case that you're always striving to have a better intelligence picture, we do put considerable effort into maintaining close relationships with the communities within which these people might be living and those operate obviously in a very overt way, we're looking to build relationships with these communities because they certainly do not want to be exploited. SIMON Andrew what sort of protection do you think we get, what sort of reassurance can we take from our not being in Iraq? ANDREW I'd like to go back to a point Jon made about New Zealanders overseas, you would recall the fatwa issued by Bin Laden back in 1998 where he declared war on the US and other people who sympathised with the United States. Jon's point about New Zealanders abroad and we've seen this in London of course in the last week, are caught up in these events. I do believe that we have to be very very careful about our people overseas, it's a point that Jon made and I would reinforce. SIMON Can we take an degree of reassurance from our foreign policy preventing us or stopping us from being in Iraq though? ANDREW Yeah to a degree but we're still at risk, our nationals are still at risk, we are still at risk here because we are loosely associated as part of that western bloc which in general terms is pushed together with the United States. SIMON I'll put this question to Jon White but also firstly to Javed Kahn in the studio. Javed are there people in New Zealand that you know of who have been to Muslim training camps in Afghanistan? JAVED KAHN, President NZ Federation of Islamic Associations SIMON Jon? JON WHITE Simon I don't want to go into the details of what I'm aware of from my intelligence perspective, you'll understand that we receive a lot of intelligence and it wouldn't be appropriate for me to share that here. All I would comment on is say that we don't believe we have active terrorist cells here but there are people as I say who sympathise with terrorist tactics names. SIMON Javed are there people in New Zealand who have been to extremist schools in Pakistan that the Muslim community knows of to your knowledge? JAVED KAHN Not to my knowledge at all. SIMON And the Muslim community is remaining vigilant in watching over these things? JAVED KAHN Yes we are very vigilant, we have got our eyes and ears fairly close to this matter and we have not received any information from our sources. SIMON Assistant Commissioner Jon White of course said that there are sympathisers in New Zealand. JAVED KAHN Of course there are some people who do sympathise with what is going around globally, given the fact that there are a lot of problems going on in the Middle East, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, and Palestine with no solution, not palatable solution being attempted by the United States and Britain, and I think that has brought about a lot of hostility amongst the Muslim community and that becomes a breeding ground for these activists. SIMON Can you accept that it is feasible that there are extremists in New Zealand? JAVED KAHN I don't think there is any extremist - I don't know what you mean by extremist but … SIMON People who hold radical beliefs. JAVED KAHN People to have, some people have some beliefs which you may classify as radical insofar as what's going on in the Middle East. There are people who have sympathy towards Bin Laden but as far as I know nobody in the community condones violence. SIMON Just a couple of years ago of course we had representatives of the radical Wahabi Movement from Saudi Arabia here in mosques in New Zealand. JAVED KAHN I don't think they were here as actively doing work in the Muslim community. SIMON Who exactly were they and what was their role? JAVED KAHN There was some inkling about a group known as Al Hamein who was dealing with the people in Christchurch about forming a trust for the mosque. SIMON And that's of course been named as a terrorist organisation by the UN. JAVED KAHN That has been named as a terrorist organisation by the UN. SIMON How much sympathy did they get here? JAVED KAHN Not at all, none. SIMON Where does the money come from for mosques for education and so forth in the New Zealand Islamic community, is it coming from offshore? JAVED KAHN No, we don't get any moneys since 9/11 that has stopped, but before that we used to get some donations from organisations, Muslim organisations. SIMON Who stopped it? JAVED KAHN I believe that the pressure from United States on these organisations and on the countries like Saudi Arabia which was where most of the sources of finance was coming through. When I say most of the sources it was pretty minor in terms of you know the running of mosques and all that, but that has completely dried up. SIMON Jon White, you say that you're satisfied with your level of knowledge of the Muslim community in New Zealand, is that fair? JON WHITE I think it's fair to say that we're always striving to improve our knowledge and our intelligence picture generally Simon, but we do have good relationships and particularly with the organisation that Javed represents. SIMON Is there anything that's emerged from the London bombings that's given you cause for thought? JON WHITE Oh absolutely there are a number of areas apart from the areas of emergency response, all the learnings to be done around running criminal investigations alongside those emergency responses, all the way through to the processes of radicalisation for example. We want to be picking up as far as we possibly can on that to search for the implications for New Zealand. SIMON Let me just throw that to Andrew then, the London bombers of course were not foreign terrorists they were home grown, how concerning is that new development? ANDREW I think that's concerning in one sense but I don't think it's surprising, there's been communities from which these bombers came resident in Britain for many generations. I guess that would then lead to the question what would be the same situation occurring here, what level of likelihood is there and that of course one can't answer, but certainly I don't think that was a particularly surprising thing to me having lived in the UK for some time. I mean you have ethnic communities in Leeds and Bradford in parts of London, in parts of other larger cities like Liverpool, so no didn't think it was surprising and given that the sort of socio economic conditions that those people those immigrant families live in, again that doesn't surprise me either. SIMON That then begs the question of how much are these terrorists like the London bombers a product of the environment or being captured by ideology? ANDREW I think it's probably a combination of the two, it's like having five bob each way really Simon isn't it, it's chicken and egg. I guess if you are in a socio economic environment which is not to your liking then you are going to look towards something that is going to give you hope and perhaps faith in the sense of an ideology like Islam is going to give you some hope. SIMON I want to come back to you in just a moment because I want to ask this question firstly to Javed Kahn. These extremists claim to be Muslims, how much responsibility should Islam bear? JAVED KAHN Well I think it has always been misinterpreted that whenever anything happens they're classified Islamist terrorists and all that. Islam does not as you have heard Mr Zaoui, Islam does not tolerate violence in any form, the only problem is that because these people happen to be Muslims it is branded Islamist terrorism, so my answer is that it has nothing to do with Islam, the terrorism has nothing to do with Islam, it's more of a political nature than of religious connotations. SIMON Is that fair comment Andrew? ANDREW Well this is a long debate Simon isn't it, yeah I mean I could sort of point to the Spanish Inquisition and say that perhaps the church has not properly apologised for that. I think a body - and Islam as I pointed out is really a diverse body it is not a cohesive body but we have not yet to my knowledge seen any sort of apology for 9/11 and I think whilst I have a great deal of sympathy for the more moderate and peaceful Islamists in the world I think there are those groups that perhaps should have apologised for that particular bombing and indeed the bombings in London. It's very easy to take refuge and say well you know Islam is diverse and therefore we can't apologise as a single body but I don't seem to have heard terribly many apologies for these things. SIMON Andrew thank you.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NICK VENTER, Senior Journalist, Dominion Post JAVED KAHN Absolutely. I'm not very sure about the condemnation by the Muslim countries and I cannot speak for them, but insofar as we are concerned we have condemned the bombing and I believe that our sister organisations in Australia and in Fiji they have condemned it profusely and I understand some of the Muslim countries have condemned it but I don't know whether all of them have condemned it. SIMON Recent polling of course has shown that there is still significant support or Osama Bin Laden in some Muslim countries, why is that? JAVED KAHN I think as I said earlier on that there is ill feeling amongst the Muslim community of what's happening in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in the Palestine and people feel that they have been - the Muslim community feels that they have been let down by the United States and Britain in this regard and therefore they give people like Bin Laden a lot of credence because somebody like Bin Laden is standing up to these major super powers and people think well at least there is somebody there who is taking United States… SIMON That sits uncomfortably with the notion that Islam is a religion of peace and I want to ask this to Andrew Renton-Green. Ahmed Zaoui said Islam, you can fight those who fight you. Do the moderate terrorists, are they simply believing that the west is fighting them and that's the justification? ANDREW Obviously Simon I can't answer for what they think, but yes I could not obviously disagree with Mr Zaoui he has his version of Islam in which he believes which from what he said I would take as being peaceful form, on the other hand when you have people claiming that they are under attack as Islam has claimed or branches of Islam have claimed and they are prepared to go to the extreme of violence of killing innocent people not just others who are not Islamic but their own people as well. ALI IKRAM, Reporter, ONE News ANDREW I think to answer your question I probably used the wrong word, apologise is the wrong word, condemn is what I intended to say and you're quite right that a number of countries have, why should others, I believe that a body of people who purport to believe in the same thing have a degree of responsibility. ALI IKRAM Because what we're not talking about in this whole issue is that very quickly after one of these attacks we switch over to a discussion about Islam. Now that's an incredibly different solution if you want to somehow limit terrorism by trying to affect the hearts and minds of people in far distant countries. Primarily I see this … SIMON This discussion of Islam - because the terrorists claim to be Islamic. ALI IKRAM Well they claim to be Islamic but why don't we discuss the failure of the intelligence service? I mean we had a couple of instances where… SIMON Let's ask Andrew that. ALI IKRAM Well this socalled master find that we hear about in the papers, he arrived last month, he had links to Al Qaeda, he had links to previous terrorist attacks, he arrived, he used four impressionable teenagers or young people and he left undetected by British authorities, then we have the situation in Luton where there was a raid last year where eight people were arrested, the authorities rested on their laurels, they decided that in some way that they had cut off the hydra's head, but the hydra grew another head because Al Qaeda always changed the game. SIMON Let's ask Andrew Renton-Green, have they failed? ANDREW I don't think they have failed I mean there have been arrests and most assuredly they have got - well not arrests but they have discovered who were the perpetrators, there's been one arrest in Cairo overnight. ALI IKRAM It's awfully late. JON WHITE Yeah perhaps I can come in here Simon because we have been maintaining very close contact with the British authorities certainly in a heightened sense since 2001 and we are well aware that they have a great many threats to their intelligence and their activities in trying to monitor and keep the UK safe. The events of last year that you referred to did cause great concern because they certainly were confirming that they did have home grown people who were well intent on causing serious harm to innocent civilians and they have been monitoring very closely the activities of people on the periphery of that. The spotlight will fall on the intelligence there's no question of that as it always does after events such as these. It's easy to point the finger and it's hard to defend because there are so many threads and so many avenues to keep monitoring in order to keep your country safe. SIMON Hence the changing nature of security internationally. Gentlemen thank you all so much for your time. Copyright to Front Page Ltd but may be used PROVIDED attribution is made to TVOne and Agenda |
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