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  AGENDA SIMON One party that definitely doesn’t want to see Winston Peters and New Zealand First forming the next government is Act. Later on today Act will launch its Stop Peters by Action campaign. Act is currently polling well below the 5% threshold and around 1.7%. Leader Rodney Hide is with me now. Mr Hide what's this campaign all about? RODNEY Oh we've gotta stop Mr Peters getting anywhere near a position of responsibility in New Zealand, we've had experience of that before it was chaos, held the country up to ransom. I think it's fundamentally undemocratic for a party leader to be campaigning into an election and not saying who he'll support, so what you're going to have is a situation where Mr Peters, he wants to be in the position where voters don’t decide who the government is, it's going to be him. Well that’s not democracy, and then we've also got the situation where when he's been in government before he's always collapsed it, it's always been chaos, and then of course we have his divide and rule politics, where he attacks Asians… SIMON Divide and rule politics, we know the accusations against him. And you're staying “stop Peters by action” isn’t that the same sort of thing, isn’t that divide and rule anyway? RODNEY Not at all, what we're doing is trying to alert New Zealanders to MMP. I mean the way this campaign's being reported in the news media and the way certainly voters are thinking of it they look at it and they say oh National's ahead of Labour or Labour's ahead of National and that’s going to be the government, not at all, this is MMP, no government is gonna rule on their own, they're going to require other political parties and there's very few available, so what you're having in the current scheme of things you’ve got the Maori Party, they're gonna make it they're gonna have five seats or more, you're going to maybe have the Green Party, you're going to have New Zealand First and then New Zealand First are going to decide, you’ve got the National Party and then you’ve got the Act Party, and what we're saying is a good government is a National government with Act in support, a bad government is a National government having to rely on New Zealand First. We've been down that route before and National if that happens they can't deliver on their tax cuts, they can't deliver on their policy and even worse government is the Labour government back but supported and reliant on the Maori Party, the Green Party and maybe New Zealand First. SIMON All the reports this morning out in the Herald suggest that of course Winston Peters may not be looking to go into coalition, that he may just be looking for a confidence and supply arrangement. RODNEY Well that’s not much better because… SIMON But better nevertheless. RODNEY I'm not sure because Winston is erratic so what he could do is he could say we'll support those policies, we'll get through to the next budget and then he'll change his mind, that’s what's happened in the past and of course at the end of the day who's he going to support, and I mean I'm amazed that he hasn’t been pushed harder on that and indeed the conditions of his support. SIMON He's made it quite clear that he's not going to state who he's going to support beforehand and the polling also suggests that his supporters are evenly split on whether he should. RODNEY Yeah, and that’s why he can't, but I mean what you're gonna have a situation then is the 7% of the voters or however many vote for Winston Peters, they're gonna decide, well actually it's not them it's gonna be Winston decides who the next Prime Minister is and who the government is for three years. SIMON It may not be him, it may be one of the others, it may be the Maori Party, it may be … RODNEY That’s what absolutely we're driving, that’s why we want to stop Mr Peters, we want to stop him because of his policies, we want to stop him because he's fundamentally undemocratic and we want to stop him because his politics is an anathema to New Zealand and he'll prevent good government in New Zealand. SIMON Okay, you're saying Stop Peters by Action is the name of the campaign, what is the action you're suggesting? RODNEY You vote for the party vote Act, that’s the way to stop Mr Peters, that means that National then don’t have to rely on Mr Peters and it means that he can be disempowered. SIMON That’s the only action then that stop Peters by action means? RODNEY Well yes, I mean what we're doing is we're making a direct appeal to New Zealanders is that if you want to stop Mr Peters you give your party vote to Act that’s the way to stop Mr Peters. SIMON You have these placards here, this is to support it. What part of the community are you looking to for support, well this is quite clear. RODNEY These particular ones are targeting Asian New Zealanders and we've got Kenneth Wang of course as our MP and he's done a fantastic job and they're just pointing out that New Zealand First going with any political party is chaos and if you get Act and National with Act in support then you get the tax cut. You will not get a tax cut if New Zealand First is in power. SIMON Are you particularly targeting Asians with this though, because of the campaigns that Winston Peters has been doing? RODNEY Sure, I mean boy we've been around New Zealand and ethnic minorities, new migrants, new New Zealanders, Asians, they feel under attack from Mr Peters and I mean my wife's Chinese, my son's half Chinese and I know what it was like for our family when Winston went on his anti Asian tirade. SIMON But you would have just seen our media piece I imagine just before that says he does have support among Asian communities? RODNEY Oh look I'm sure there are some Asians that vote for Winston, um but what I do know is this, is that when he makes his attacks on Asians or Somalis or Muslims he legitimises all the sort of thugs and bullies in our streets to abuse people in the street, to attack them because you have this person in power and authority who's saying it's okay that your prejudices, that your world view is right because Winston said it, and I mean I've had… SIMON Scaremongering. RODNEY Scaremongering – I've had direct experience of that. SIMON But isn’t this policy Stop Peters by Action, isn’t this just the reverse side of scaremongering? RODNEY Not at all, we're not attacking vulnerable people in New Zealand, what we're doing is saying we're attacking Winston Peters for his attacks on vulnerable people and we're pointing out MMP. SIMON Well he's painting ogres among communities but you're painting him as an ogre, that’s the same sort of thing. RODNEY Yes he is an ogre, I think Winston Peters is a demagogue and an ogre and I think he's xenophobic, I think he's racist, he's does us tremendous damage overseas with his attacks, he scares off Asian investors, he scares off tourists, he scares off students who want to come to New Zealand and study. Look the vision that Act has for New Zealand is of a free and prosperous New Zealand that’s outward looking, that’s confident, that is multi racial and Maori ethnic, that everyone has the same rights, and what we have with Mr Peters is a demagogue who wants to close New Zealand down, who wants to attack ethnic minorities and divide New Zealand and let's face it I don’t think for a minute that Winston even believes what he says, he just says it because he knows he can win some votes by doing it, and get in the paper and on TV. You said a while ago that he's not doing well because he hasn’t been in the news, well there's a sure fire way to get into the news that’s pick on someone. SIMON You’ve said the vision that you have for New Zealand, you’ve articulated that for some time now but you’ve been unable to get any traction in the polls, what strategy are you adopting from here on in? RODNEY Oh well we're explaining about MMP, we're saying that if people want a change of direction and a change of government and that is the mood of New Zealand, then again the only way that they can do that is to give their party vote to Act, that’s the way to get a change of government, that’s the way to get a change of direction. SIMON It isn’t working in the polls though – can Act survive? RODNEY Well we actually haven’t had the campaign yet, we actually haven’t had the votes yet, yes we've got a tough challenge but I'm hopeful and I believe that there's 7% of New Zealanders to support Act, that’s certainly is what the feedback we get, what they're doing is they're sitting there and saying this – we want to get rid of Helen Clark and the way to do that is to vote National, we'd like to vote for Act but we think by voting National we'll get rid of Helen Clark. Well it won't work, if they want to get rid of Helen Clark, if they want a change of government, if they want a change of direction then they will be needing to give their party vote to Act. SIMON But if you want to get in too you need a strong National, how likely, what sort of likelihood is there that you will do an electoral deal with National, is there any? RODNEY Well that’s up to National, I mean we're campaigning hard for the party vote, that’s our number one goal because we want to be there to be in a position to influence. We also have the strategy of campaigning in Epsom, but my number one goal is to win the party vote. SIMON Have you had any talks with National to this point, on either the party vote or on Epsom and accommodation there? RODNEY No, no I mean we talk but we haven’t had any deals. SIMON No formal talks? RODNEY We're not suggesting there's no deal I mean I think that voters get very few choices and I think they should have a choice but I think what the problem that we have is, is that we need to be explaining MMP and I'm actually pleased that National's doing well, I mean they're doing well with our policies which again you know we've had tremendous success at. SIMON You say tremendous success but again you're not getting the traction at the polls. RODNEY Well no think a bit like this Simon – no no just – no no this is a very important point. When Act turned up to parliament tax cuts were considered impossible, time limits for the Treaty settlements was considered impossible, welfare reform was not political possible, all those issues have now been adopted by National and by Labour, they're issues that when we started were fringe and that’s the role that Act plays. SIMON The issues are gaining traction perhaps with another party but you're not, you are still marginalised, and how much must you take responsibility for that portion… RODNEY I'm the leader I have to take full responsibility of course, and I mean that’s why I'm campaigning so hard, to get the message out to explain MMP, to explain the issues of this election campaign and that’s why I'm coming on your show. SIMON If you don’t get back into parliament will you remain in politics? RODNEY Oh I don’t have a plan B, I mean when you go into a campaign you go in to win and so my goal is to win and we will win. SIMON Let me bring the panel in at this point. Any questions gentlemen for Rodney Hide?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BRYCE JOHNS – Editor, Waikato Times
BRYCE Is he going to be used during the campaign? RODNEY Yes, very much. CRAIG NICHOLSON – Editor, Bay of Plenty Times RODNEY Look it's not desperate, it's actually what you believe in and what you stand up for and I think Helen Clark and Don Brash haven’t been strong enough on this because they don’t go along with this sort of politics either and in fact they could disempower Winston immediately just by saying they won't deal with him and that would be a responsible position to take. Is it desperate, no it's not, is it brave well Act is a brave party we believe in standing up for what we believe in and actually letting voters choose, it's a very important point in politics. BRYCE It's a slightly unrealistic position though isn’t it to ask Mr Peters to declare who he would rather go with because he's going to alienate some potential voters, which politician in the country in their right mind is going to do that? RODNEY Well every other politician has done it apart from Peter Dunne but – so they have all said look this is where we line up and we should have that expectation. BRYCE Does that make Mr Peters smarter? RODNEY I think it makes him undemocratic because he's got this problem that he's always playing two horses and so he's sitting there saying well I might support National I might support Labour, and yes he's probably winning more votes because half of them think he's gonna support Labour, half think he's gonna support National, but at the end of the day I believe it's wrong and undemocratic that you have a smaller party who didn’t declare after the election deciding who is in government, and of course we saw what happened in 1996, in fact Sunday newspapers after the 1996 election said Helen Clark won, history. Then we went into what was it nine weeks where Winston Peters held the country to ransom and the expectation was amongst all the commentators was that he'd go with Labour, well blow me down he went with National, the very thing in that election that he campaigned against and what happened – they blew six billion dollars it was chaos and that government fell apart. We have to remind voters of that and explain to them that it's MMP. The important thing is that whether National's ahead of Labour or Labour's ahead of National, the important thing is which side of the House have 61 MPs or more, that’s what determines the government under MMP. SIMON How important is the Stop Winston Peters campaign in terms of getting you back on track? RODNEY Oh it's a part of it and it's us declaring what we believe in, it's us declaring that we believe in having a free prosperous tolerant New Zealand where everyone has the same rights and so it's basic to Act's philosophy. SIMON How much do you think that your previous scam busting persona may be still harming the party? RODNEY Oh I don’t – it could be quite a lot, I don’t resile from that, I think it's important that opposition MPs do their job. The big problem that Act has in my view is an understanding of MMP, so if what my experience has been is that when you explain MMP, when you explain what you need to do to get a change of direction a change of government people say gee whiz I'm gonna give my party vote to Act. That’s what we need to do. SIMON Act Leader Rodney Hide, that you so much for joining us in the programme today. We had thought Mr Peters would be on this programme this morning but there appears to have been a misunderstanding. Although his office told us yesterday that he would be, he has just advised us that he never received that invitation so he's not here. Hopefully we will see him before this election campaign is over though.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PANELLISTS
CRAIG No he's a desperate man, I believe that tackling Winston Peters is his last effort really. At 1.7% he's a long way from getting back into parliament, he's tackling a man with a lot of popularity around the country. SIMON You put that to him and I couldn’t help thinking though that a lot of popularity, but a lot of unpopularity as well, tapping into a disaffected market with Winston Peters, that must be fairly large. CRAIG It is but he's got somewhere between 7 and 10% popularity out there and these are people devoted to Winston and he's gonna try and take some devoted followers away, I don’t see him doing it and if he's hanging his hat on taking those voters away I don’t think we're gonna see Act after the election. SIMON As Editor of the Bay of Plenty Times, Winston in Tauranga, how much of a threat is he under? CRAIG I believe he has to be taken seriously, it's the biggest threat I think he's faced, he went very close two elections back following the fallout of the coalition, he nearly lost the seat then but this time he's got a real candidate, a solid candidate, a National Party candidate and National's rising in the polls, he could be beaten, I'm not saying he will be but he could be beaten. SIMON He'll still be back nevertheless on the party list. BRYCE Look I don’t think this thing's over for Act, I've gotta be a bit contrary here, he was very composed Rodney, very composed under a lot of pressure, we know that he's got to be sweating like a London tube passenger but he did very well, staying composed, he's holding it together and we saw last election with Peter Dunne, a party that was polling as low as what Act is doing now, come through and win the amount of seats that no one had predicted. The TV debate's gonna be key, he's got to front up there and he can get traction there with good moderate performances that capture the hearts and minds of New Zealand, if he does that and if he can hit on the Winston Peters campaign it isn’t over by a long way and I just can't understand why commentators are completely writing him off bearing in mind what we saw three years ago. SIMON Well given what we've seen in the last week, you know with seven weeks to go in the last week Labour's gone from you know dead in the water to ahead in the polls, there's a lot of water under this bridge yet. BRYCE And we know the amount of time that TV and radio are gonna give to this thing, I know the amount of space that I'm gonna give in the paper and if he hits on the right things, if Act can get in behind him and hit on the right things they will be there, but that’s the 50 million dollar question. SIMON What are the right things though, he's articulated that vision, he's talked the lower taxes and none of it seems to gain the traction we're talking about, what are the right things he's gotta hit on? CRAIG Well his problem is that what he's hitting on is what National's hitting on. To me he's invisible, the party's invisible. Act has been its strongest when National Party has been weak, now National Party is getting strong, where's the vision between the two of them, why would you vote for Act when National Party's offering the same. SIMON Well if people are clamouring for tax cuts quite clearly National's not gonna give anything of the order that Act is promising, so surely Act is appealing by definition – no? BRYCE I think it's the reality of what Act offers, what does that mean, 25% taxes, what does that mean, what happens to our education, to our health. SIMON It's too much BRYCE Exactly, they're two of the top issues in the country that people are worried about, people with families are worried about, so 25% there's a cost to that. SIMON Illusory promise. BRYCE Look their policies, no one gives a toss about their policies, they're such a minor part of this that he has to concentrate on things like attacking Winston or attacking someone or talking about the philosophy of MMP, who is National going to partner. SIMON So politics rather than policy is Act's way forward? BRYCE Oh definitely definitely, they're not gonna get a position with anyone to force a great amount of change so they’ve got to find fringe things to get some traction. SIMON Are fringe things gonna be enough though with the king hit of the student loan policy or the perceived king hit of the student loan policy don’t we need – isn’t that the standard that’s been set? BRYCE Well it is for the big parties but you know he can promise us all a million dollars but he's never gonna be in a position to give it to us, so I don’t think it is that, it is really he's got to convince people that if they want the change of government, if they do want to see Helen Clark gone then he has to be there with Don Brash. SIMON And that hasn’t worked so far. BRYCE No it hasn’t but there's a long way to go, there's a long way to go, he's gonna be getting some major coverage on national TV and things and we saw it with Peter Dunne, it isn’t over red rover. SIMON Well what about Peter Dunne? BRYCE Well again he's gonna have to pull a miracle one out of the bag again isn’t he? They're safe in a lot of ways because of his electorate seat, he's gonna win Ohariu Belmont no two ways about that, so they're there in a presence but you know the almost double figure MPs are going to be decimated unless he can do the same as he did last time, now it was Lazarus like last time and on the basis of that you know I wouldn’t be putting my life savings on the TAB against him just yet. SIMON The Greens of course were also flirting with 5% threshold in a couple of the polls yesterday, how vital is it for the Greens to get back for Labour? CRAIG They're a key partner for Labour aren’t they, they’ve gotta be there. SIMON That’s an alternative to New Zealand First possibly. CRAIG Exactly, I mean there's a lot closer link between the two of them and a lot more ground to work on, I'm not sure Helen Clark will be too keen to be getting into bed with Winston Peters if you like, but the Greens she's worked with them, they’ve had a good relationship over the last three years so they need them back. SIMON What about the scenario now that it seems that Winston may be backing off and you know looking at a supply and confidence agreement, it's worked for Peter Dunne. CRAIG I don’t believe that will be the case. Well Winston Peters is in politics I mean I would have thought his best time in politics would have been the three years he was Deputy Prime Minister and Treasurer, I don’t believe he is campaigning to sit on a back bench and just offer confidence and supply, I don’t think that’s the case. SIMON Well let's discuss Winston Peters. Winston Peters and the attack mode that he's in now, is this about getting back in the polls? CRAIG Oh it certainly is I mean this is the third time that I can remember now that every three years it comes up, the previous two elections it was about Asians now we've targeted Muslims, it just seems to come up at the same time and then it disappears for a couple of years and I've found the attacks quite outrageous on the Muslim community in the past week. SIMON He of course has launched his campaign earliest and he's been in the media for some time now has he peaked too early, can he sustain this? BRYCE Oh we've seen this week that he'll find a new theme on an old topic won't he and you will see him worry this one away right through the campaign and it works for him you know he knows the market very well, he's a master at it. SIMON But it can become tiresome can't it, it can start to disaffect voters, can he sustain it, he is a master like you say. BRYCE He's a master at it, he knows what he's doing. SIMON Long way. BRYCE Yeah but he's gonna alienate a lot of people that’s fine, look at the TV debate this week that he had on – it was Close Up wasn’t it with Anjum Rahmun who's a Hamilton Labour list candidate, and I thought he got a pummelling there, I thought that the bully got bullied, she did fantastically well and if you'd had the old wormometer on that debate his would have been the one at the bottom of the tequila bottle, but conversely if I can just say conversely he's won the debate. As soon as he's on TV with a Muslim woman in a burkha his supporters will just suddenly rally, say look that’s it we don’t want these people here. SIMON For the devoted you know you're preaching to the choir with him you can't lose, but what about the backlash effect I mean is there a backlash effect from the scaremongering, you know the polls suggested that Labour rose last week despite Trevor Mallard's statements about you know National's bag man, that didn’t seem to backfire. Do we simply like simple messages that resonate regardless? CRAIG Oh I think so, he does hit a mark every time he brings up this race debate, but you know we're in an election campaign here and yes that’s important but don’t we have to look at the wider picture of what's happening in New Zealand and if he creates another group of racists out there as a result of his comments is that good for this country you know down the track, life is not about this election campaign and he's alienated a whole community in New Zealand basically saying there's two types of Muslims, moderates and militants and the moderates know who all the militants are, so there's no good Muslims out there any more. That’s outrageous. SIMON This is a blatant appeal isn’t it to interest groups, such as Grey Power, the elderly and to his own electorate? CRAIG Well that’s right, there is a market that will lap that up and there is a racist element in New Zealand we know, that you know that don’t like the Asian immigration here and they’ve lapped it up before, he's got in on two elections based on that policy, he's doing it again and you know it just struck me as going back to the 1950s and McCarthyism in the States, you know we've got Muslims under our beds and we'd better watch out because they’ve got suicide bombs attached to them. It just isn’t there. SIMON I want to take it back to the Bay of Plenty and to his local electorate Tauranga which you encompass, how visible is he down there? CRAIG He's around, his national duties do take him out of the electorate, I don’t believe he's as visible as other MPs would be. SIMON You’re the major newspaper in the area does he have a lot to do with you? CRAIG We have a very slim relationship with Winston. I've been in this job nearly three years and I met him two weeks ago for the first time. When I took on this job a number of MPs came and knocked on my door said hey you know I'd just like to say hullo, I haven’t had that with Winston Peters he has little to do with us. BRYCE Are we getting too wound up about his attacks, I mean it's an election and people are gonna do outrageous things, Helen Clark student loans you know, no-one tipped that a week ago, no one in the world tipped that a week ago and they’ve unvCopyright to Front Page Ltd but may be used PROVIDED attribution is made to TVOne and Agendaeiled the thing. These things are gonna happen, they're desperately after votes and we've got to expect more of this the next six weeks. SIMON If these are the things that work though doesn’t that say to all the other parties that they're gonna have to do the same thing? BRYCE Well what does it say about us, the public, you know if we're falling for these things what does it say about us. SIMON We're venal. BRYCE Quite right yeah. SIMON So are the other parties going to have to do this, is this the new standard, student loan policy you know as it's been widely condemned as dodgy policy but great politics, this may be the same effect with the Winston Peters' immigration angle, are the other parties gonna have to do the same thing are they now having to go back into their strategy think tanks and say we need something radical that resonates? CRAIG I don’t think slipping to the lowest common denominator is the way to get ahead, I mean in the end of seven weeks we've gotta somehow form a government, now if they're gonna go to policies, racist policies or lowest common denominator policy how can they be a leader. SIMON As you say seven weeks to go, a lot of water to flow under that bridge. Transcript is copyright to Front Page Ltd and may contain errors. It should be checked against a taped copy of the programme to ensure accuracy. Copyright to Front Page Ltd but may be used PROVIDED attribution is made to TVOne and Agenda
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