| LISA |
For many voters Winston Peters is New Zealand First, how then has the party fared since its leader became a minister outside of cabinet, is it losing its brand and how much influence does Winston Peters really have as the Minister of Foreign Affairs, he joins me now. |
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Good morning Mr Peters, when you took up this position you laid out several goals for what you'd like to see happen in the Pacific region, what specifically have you done to realise those goals. |
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| WINSTON |
Well precisely that I have set out to ensure that we maintained or increased our budget with respect to overseas government aid in this part of the world, the overall budget is up as well because we've got serious challenges to meet at this particular time and the policy that I have reprioritised namely to make the Pacific and our future the number one issue in Foreign Affairs is happening, it's recognised in Japan having increased its aid by 50% just a week ago to 402 million over three years, the European Union is also recognising that so is the United States and so in the sense of getting a refocus that is happening and has happened. |
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| LISA |
We've got New Zealand troops obviously over in Timor at the moment and they’ve been involved in the Solomon Islands, did Foreign Affairs see that unrest building, were we aware of that or were we taken a little bit by surprise do you think, did people expect it? |
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| WINSTON |
Well in the case of the Solomon Islands they saw it coming, they saw it in Dili as well, it's very difficult though when countries like Australia for example also engaged didn’t pick the exact moment, it's difficult to criticise anyone for what was a state of unpreparedness when it first happened, for example when over 600 soldiers were sacked in Dili it was predictable that there would be problems, the question was when and likewise after the elections in the Solomon Islands there was an outfall from the choice of a Prime Minister who was hugely unpopular and the rioting started. It's difficult to say what might be the flash point and in that respect I don’t think one can lay blame. |
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| LISA |
Now Phil Goff when to the Solomons during the unrest and he also went to the US Partnership Forum he met Donald Rumsfeld there and I'm just wondering what's the difference between your role and his role and I mean are you just the Foreign Minister in name only and is Phil Goff still holding on to that mantle? |
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| WINSTON |
Well no contrary to media statements which were utterly wrong it was my choice not to go to the US/New Zealand Council meeting it was a trade meeting for the most part and the Prime Minister agreed. The question you ask bellies the facts and the facts are that I'm the Minister of Foreign Affairs, I am the face with my office and our embassies and high commissions abroad of New Zealand in that respect, it's just the blunt fact. |
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| LISA |
You did mention when taking up this post that you'd like to do something to bolster relations with the US, what concrete plans do you have in terms of that, have you got a visit planned at the moment? |
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| WINSTON |
Yes we have a visit planned at the moment. |
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| LISA |
When do you intend to go? |
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| WINSTON |
When it is known exactly I'll announce the date, I'm not in a rush to have meetings without results, we need to have concrete results and outcomes from all of our engagements and that’s the purpose of these meetings. I went to Japan to ensure that we got an outcome there and I intend to go to the United States for the same reason, I'll let you know when it happens as to exactly what the objectives were and whether we achieved them. |
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| LISA |
So generally speaking what would you want to come out of a meeting, you say you don’t want to go with no results so what would the result be that you'd be looking for? |
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| WINSTON |
Well first of all we've had 21 years of what is largely a stalemate, it's time to move these things forward and I have my own private views, I share them with my officers as to what is achievable in 2006 and beyond and rather than hype them up and make all sorts of statements against which people are going to try and measure this after 21 years of a stalemate I'm gonna try to get on as the All Blacks do let the rugby do the talking and let the policy do the talking in this case. |
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| LISA |
Would you like to meet with George W Bush? |
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| WINSTON |
I don’t intend to meet with George W Bush, that’s not what one would expect as Foreign Minister, that is a prime ministerial visit, I'll stick with the Secretary for the State, Condoleezza Rice. |
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| LISA |
Well you did in recent times release this Don Brash email which obviously showed that the National Party had been having talks with American strategists, how do you see that fitting in with your role as Foreign Affairs Minister because some people suggested that there was an anti American sentiment attached to that. |
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| WINSTON |
It was utterly wrong, for goodness sake there's nothing wrong with talking to Canadian political parties, the UK political parties, Australian political parties or American political parties for that matter, it's when you deny it, that’s simply what happened he denied it. There was no sin in talking to them, I've talked to them we all have but we don’t deny it. Now the Americans are big enough and strong enough in this robust democracy to understand exactly what this is about, it is not anti American in any way shape or form to point out that someone who wishes to be a leader of the country and a Prime Minister is not telling the truth. |
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| LISA |
So what's your own view of America then? |
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| WINSTON |
I think America's an amazing wonderful country, it's many countries in many ways, it has its problems but I'm glad that America leads the free world and not some other country. |
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| LISA |
So your motivation in releasing that email was in your mind to show up a dishonesty? |
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| WINSTON |
Precisely, that’s what I did. |
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| LISA |
So what about the timing of the release? |
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| WINSTON |
Timing's irrelevant, look pointing out that something is not true is relevant 365 days a year, trying to make out it's something anti American is just nonsense, crikey I've had meetings with the American Ambassador and others, people like Chris Hill the Deputy Secretary of State, I mean to talk about this as being anti American is absolute total humbug, it's an internal matter where a leader of a political party wishing to be the Prime Minister claimed something which wasn’t true, the email proved that categorically, that was my interest and that only. |
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| LISA |
But in terms of timing it came at a point where Labour was under the gun over the Telecom leak and this offered a wonderful diversion did it not, I mean how calculated was that. |
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| WINSTON |
Well how could the government be under the gun because you’ve got a dishonest civil servant? I'll put this to you, here comes the leak, totally unscripted without any knowledge of any minister, totally dishonest in its entirety, the share market didn’t start to tumble until that information was known on the Australian market at which time there was two hours after it was known publicly in New Zealand. I'm not defending the government other than to say sometimes when you have a basic dishonesty is it right to blame the Minister of Communications because someone in the Civil Service can't be honest and loyal to his job? |
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| LISA |
Point blank though did you release that email at that time to offer some kind of diversion? |
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| WINSTON |
You know I knew thought I'd come in here to have a discussion about an email leak. |
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| LISA |
So did you release it as a diversion? |
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| WINSTON |
No I released it because it was available to me at that time and it seemed a good time to let it go because the question of honesty and integrity was a threat to Dr Brash right on the agenda. |
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| LISA |
So do you still consider yourself as not being part of the government, you're definitely not part of the government? |
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| WINSTON |
Well I made it very clear the night we announced our choice, the Labour and National parties had four weeks as had the media demanded that we leave our position pre election and join one or other side, it is horribly dishonest of them being the side that wasn’t chosen to now complain about our position, that’s exactly what Don Brash and Rodney Hyde and the Maori Party and United Party when meeting in my office wanted me to do. I just want to remind you their actions belie their statements, for the media to join them is I think you know somewhat shallow. |
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| LISA |
So outside of government then what are you and New Zealand First doing to present yourselves as a credible opposition party? |
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| WINSTON |
Well we've got a thousand extra policemen coming, and 245 staff on top of that, and so that by 2010 we'll have parity with Australia in terms of policemen and women per capita in our country. |
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| LISA |
But that’s a benefit of being part of a coalition isn't it? |
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| WINSTON |
No this is a party that made promises pre-election and is delivering them. I've got 66.12% for the elderly people of this country, no longer something like 63.8% but 66%, we've got a Golden Age Card coming which will make that 66% getting around to about 72% in reality because of its spending power, that people will be able to Fly Buy to retirement, we've got a host of things that are happening in respect to age care in hospitals, they were part of the budget, and so what we've set up to do is demonstrate that our promises are being kept and we are delivering. You can't name me one thing that for example the Act Party or the National Party have ever done for their people in the last seven years. I can show you a list as long as your arm. |
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| LISA |
In this parliamentary term you have it seems asked I think three written questions of this government, in the last parliamentary term you asked more than 900. |
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| WINSTON |
Not so we've asked a stack of questions of this government? |
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| LISA |
You personally, written questions in the House and I'm wondering there's a big change in numbers so does that suggest that you're entirely satisfied with what the government is doing? |
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| WINSTON |
No, no, you’ve got the wrong end of the stick, it's my political party that asks the questions, it's not usual for a minister to be running round asking questions, they're sposed to know what the answers are. |
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| LISA |
Are you entirely happy then with the way Labour is handling things, is that what that suggests, that there aren’t so many questions there aren’t so many things to point the finger at or clarify? |
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| WINSTON |
No quite the contrary we've asked hundreds of questions, and go on asking them, my colleagues are doing it every day, the fact of the matter is we make our contribution but we don’t seem to get the coverage of some political parties whose contribution and influence is zero, utterly zero. Listen to Morning Report on Radio New Zealand, they have the Greens on and Act on every darn day and their contribution is zero. |
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| LISA |
What could this government do better do you think? |
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| WINSTON |
They could do a host of things better and we seek to encourage them to do so, but if we want to turn this economy around we have to bring in export tax incentives, in short we've gotta give ourselves a far grater edge over Australia and other countries, we have long abdicated that, we believe all new export taxes should be at 20% and all increased exports should be at 20% as well and in five years the whole regime should be at 20%, that’s the only way in our view that we're gonna quickly turn this economy around, and I'm pleased to say that I'm starting to hear noises from government and others suggesting that I may be right. |
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| LISA |
Now you have said some things about National this year, you describe them as shallow, a shilly-shallying group with no policies or principles and you said that Don Brash had taken a bazooka to a press conference and shot himself with it. |
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| WINSTON |
Well he did, hang on here's an email that he said wasn’t relevant but he held a press conference about it. |
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| LISA |
Email to one side what traction has that kind of activity got you as a party do you think? |
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| WINSTON |
What type of activity? |
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| LISA |
Well bashing National. |
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| WINSTON |
Oh look I'm not bashing National I'm just pointing out that this party is a party of placebo politics and placebo policies, those policies which they do have were all stolen from New Zealand First. Who began to demand accountability on the Waitangi issue, who first talked about one law for everybody in this country, who first raised the issue of a …..referendum and the governance of this country, who for example said that all money collected from road taxes should be spent on roads. New Zealand First and Winston Peters said that and they stole those policies lock stock and barrel but the problem is they can't sell them. |
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| LISA |
Does this mean that you couldn’t work with National after the next election? |
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| WINSTON |
No National's problem is that it advocates policies which are unworkable, I think it was Einstein who said that the true insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results, that’s what National's problem is they haven’t got policies. |
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| LISA |
If perhaps not Don Brash is there someone within the National Party that you could work with post next election. |
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| WINSTON |
Well we seek to work with everybody. |
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| LISA |
Anyone specific within National? |
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| WINSTON |
We have worked with National in the past, we are working with Labour now. |
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| LISA |
Could you work with National in the future? |
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| WINSTON |
Hang on why is that question relevant? I'm here to talk about New Zealand First its policies and its vision. Now wait a minute – the National Party - when you get the National Party in here I don’t think you're gonna spend five seconds talking about Winston Peters and review his policies. |
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| LISA |
Let's talk more about New Zealand First. |
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| WINSTON |
Good idea. |
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| LISA |
Is your being in the government or alongside the government diluted your brand as a party at all, are people kind of forgetting that these are New Zealand First policies? |
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| WINSTON |
Quite the contrary we've had 40 years of neglect of racing, we've just turned racing around, go and ask anybody in the racing industry … |
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| LISA |
Do people realise that’s New Zealand First or do they just think that it's Labour? |
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| WINSTON |
Of course they do. Well it's not Labour because Labour didn’t have a policy, that’s why I took the job on cos I had one, a policy that is that has been put in place in electrifyingly fast time. |
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| LISA |
So you think the New Zealand First brand is still very strong? |
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| WINSTON |
Very strong, the polls show that I'm comfortable with where we sit. |
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| LISA |
4.3% - UMR inside poll, is that strong? |
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| WINSTON |
No, no no, I think the UMR inside poll is humbug and I'll tell you why, it's polling exactly now as it was this far from the 2002 election and come election night 2005 again they were dramatically wrong. |
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| LISA |
Colmar poll is polling even less actually, we'll take the Colmar poll. |
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| WINSTON |
Excuse me, the problem with polls in this country is that they're totally unaccountable. If you have a more than 3% spread in major polls internationally, in the UK USA or Australia, there's a serious investigation as to the methodology. We have 10% 40% spread in pollsters in this country and they carry on in their arrogant way as though they know what's going on, each election they look like a joke. |
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| LISA |
Mr Peters looking forward to the next election what is going to be the big goal for your party, for New Zealand First? |
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| WINSTON |
Well to achieve what we set out to achieve in the 2005 election in terms of policy, to have them clearly branded in the public's mind as being the achievements of New Zealand First, which were uniquely arrived at because of this party and would not have happened otherwise. If we have done that we'll have a clear run campaign for 2008 and we'll do well in 2008. |
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| LISA |
Standing in Tauranga in 2008? |
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| WINSTON |
Well cabinet we'll worry about that when the time comes. |
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| LISA |
What have you told your caucus about that? |
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| WINSTON |
This is 2006 and I'm busy getting on with the jobs I've got now. |
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| LISA |
So have you given your cabinet any indication about Tauranga seat? |
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| WINSTON |
I don’t have a cabinet? |
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| LISA |
Caucus rather. Have you told them? |
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| WINSTON |
Like all of my caucus colleagues we'll make up our minds as to which way we will individually stand and how we'll individually stand come 2008. |
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| LISA |
So you're not ruling retirement out then? |
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| WINSTON |
Contrary to certain speculation by the media I'll retire when I'm good and ready to. |
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| LISA |
Which won't be at the next election? |
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| WINSTON |
I'm not going to answer those questions. I'll worry about that when the time comes, but the fact is the party's doing well, our policy implementation is going extraordinarily well in terms of being on track and most of the things we ask for are already in the 2006 budget, the racing policy was put in place by March, the Golden Age policy … will be there come to live 2007, we'll have an export year next year, so the policies I talk about will become a greater reality. |
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| LISA |
You mentioned exports there, you mentioned that you believe the government is sympathetic to export incentives, what makes you say that? |
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| WINSTON |
Well the government's working on various tax proposals but if you want to make a very immediate change to this country's economic outcome and in the short term and the medium and long term get all your taxes back because of greater growth in GDP this is the way to go. |
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| LISA |
So there'll be some kind of incentive do you believe in the review of business taxation? |
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| WINSTON |
Well I'll wait till the review is out for that to be announced. |
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| LISA |
Let's bring in our panel now Audrey Young from the Herald first, any questions for Mr Peters. |
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| AUDREY YOUNG – Political Editor, NZ Herald |
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Mr Peters last time you were on Agenda you said that you weren't going to attend Cabinet but you also said you weren't going to attend Cabinet committee meetings. Phil Goff and others tell me that you actually are whenever you can fronting up to the External Relations and Defence Committee. |
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| WINSTON |
What is said was – I didn’t say I'd not attend Cabinet Committees, I said I wouldn’t be attending Cabinet, but on the odd occasion for example when there's the Premier of China comes to the country and a Cabinet meeting is required, I and all my colleagues go. |
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| AUDREY |
Yeah I think that’s acceptable. |
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| WINSTON |
And I go to all the various Cabinet committees in which the legislation I'm handling is required to be passed. |
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| AUDREY |
It is actually quite different from what you originally said and you were criticised at the time for saying that you wouldn’t be attending Cabinet committees, I think it's to your credit that you are but I was wondering what changed your mind and if you are actually working in the heart of government doesn’t it make a farce of the notion that you're not in government if you are there… |
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| WINSTON |
Don’t let's waste our time the next two and half years relitigating what was decided at the formation of this government. Just get over it for godsake and the media understand that democracy is an evolving institution and this is just one form of it. |
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| AUDREY |
But you are actually working within government. |
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| WINSTON |
Here we go again, you're relitigating what I said was very clear on the night we decided that we would support in confidence and supply the present government, why, because it was the only option that would work. |
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| LISA |
Alright Chris we'll bring you in here. |
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| CHRIS BALDOCK – Editor, Sunday News |
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Talking about New Zealand First no one doubts your willingness or ability to pursue your goals and your policies in parliament, but you talk about the brand not being diluted but it was seriously diluted at the election, I mean you went from 13 seats to 7, you lost Tauranga, why do you think that happened and how are you gonna recover that position forward at the next election? |
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| WINSTON |
Well it wasn’t a great election for us, nor was 1999 but we've made numerous comebacks in the past and we'll make one in 2008. The fact is of course that the other parties get an enormous amount of coverage, enormous amount of air time and television time and they have a whole forest full of papers written about them excepting one thing – they don’t get to form governments, they don’t get to have the influence and they never will in many cases, but they still are the fad of the media. New Zealand First is not that sort of party because we don’t suck up to the media, we don’t play the media's silly games. We get on with doing what we believe our policies should be and when you go back and examine history you'll see which party was influential and which one wasn’t, New Zealand First is a very influential party, we prove it every day. |
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| CHRIS |
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But you are very good at getting your message across, you don’t lack for media coverage, you don’t lack publicity. |
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| WINSTON |
I've been on this programme twice in two years, that’s not a very good way of getting your message across when you're being denied space. |
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| CHRIS |
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But if you were on once a month the public would get bored and fed up with you. |
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| WINSTON |
Oh I see, so I'm … |
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| LISA |
Growing the New Zealand First vote, I know you dispute the 4.3 poll but I mean how are you gonna bring it up above the 5%, what seat are you going to win? |
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| WINSTON |
Excuse me our record is to win at election time and do very well at election time, so why are you obsessed with parties that never can actually make it, but New Zealand First has been there since its formation in 1993, stronger than any other third party, we are still a third party in this country so why am I seeing the 7th and the 5th parties constantly on Radio, TV and print media? |
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| AUDREY |
Just a comment on the emails first of all. It seems to me that you might have simply compounded the offence this morning, you say that there was no never no mind about releasing that Brash email but it was the United States Ambassador that said it left a stain, the whole episode had left a stain so I mean I think here you are as Foreign Minister repeating the offence. |
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| WINSTON |
It's because you journalists rushed along and asked a stupid question of him. Of course he had to say something but the American democratic system is so robust and it is so used to this sort of thing it's of never no mind, the fact that I had an email totally refuting an denial by Don Brash is a significant political matter. |
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| LISA |
So you don’t take the American Ambassador seriously his comments? |
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| WINSTON |
Look I've talked to the American Ambassador a number of times since then and it's of no moment to the Americans. |
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| AUDREY |
Yeah just on the email though you did tell parliament that you had an email, one of Brash's emails that outlines National's strategy to get New Zealand First on side after the election which does sound incredibly juicy, I'm wondering whether we're ever gonna see that or is it too derogatory? |
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| WINSTON |
You know what's amazing is that you expect me to divulge my sources and information which is mine and my party's because we've acquired it because of who we are, I never see you divulging your sources. |
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| AUDREY |
I didn’t ask you to divulge your sources, I said are we ever going to see the emails? |
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| WINSTON |
You'll see them in good time yes. |
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| AUDREY |
Those ones that … |
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| LISA |
The telephone book of emails. |
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| WINSTON |
You'll see them in good time if it's appropriate yes. |
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| LISA |
Alright you once mentioned Dr Cullen, you described him as an economic illiterate, a joke, you said the only practical experience he had was running the tuck shop at the university. |
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| WINSTON |
No I didn’t say that about him at all, I said it about Mr Caygill. |
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| LISA |
No you said it about … |
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| WINSTON |
No no, hang on… |
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| LISA |
How long do you think Dr Cullen's doing now? |
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| WINSTON |
No no you're not gonna slide past a mistake and get away with it with respect. I said it about Caygill, Caygill rang the Canterbury University Student Union and I said he ran the Canterbury University tuck shop. Mr Caygill … |
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| LISA |
Cullen you referred to as an economic illiterate, how's he doing now? |
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| WINSTON |
Lisa, you can't make a statement like that and get away with it, I'm telling you I didn’t say it, I said it about Caygill and I stand by my words. Mr Caygill came in the House in May 90 – don’t interrupt me, he announced in May 90 an 88 million dollar surplus when it was a 3.2 billion dollar deficit, that’s what I call economic illiterate. |
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| LISA |
Dr Cullen's economic performance, are you happy with it? |
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| WINSTON |
I think Dr Cullen has done more than a reasonable job as Minister of Finance, I think that he will be remembered for that, he's run a very responsible series of surpluses, he is quite right when he tries to point out to economic illiterates particularly some in parliament, that the surpluses about which he speaks are not available for tax cuts, he's utterly right about that and the National Party is being totally fraudulent in advocating borrowing for tax cuts. The regime I'm putting to him and you is one where you can have tax cuts for a specific group to lift rapidly the economic performance of New Zealand and you'll get your tax back as well at a lower rate. |
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| AUDREY |
Last year you predicted in the New Zealand Herald actually that there would be personal tax cuts before the next election, do you still believe that? |
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| WINSTON |
Yes I do. |
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| AUDREY |
Do you think Dr Cullen will be the Finance Minister delivering those? |
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| WINSTON |
I think that’s highly likely, it's not my choice, but I think that’s highly likely. |
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| LISA |
Why do you think it's gonna happen? |
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| WINSTON |
What's it? |
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| LISA |
Tax cuts, what makes you so confident? |
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| WINSTON |
Well sometimes there is a compelling argument that grows every day, in this case it's on our economic performance, it's export year 2007 coming and I think that more and more people will begin to understand that we can change for the better our economic performance in terms of rapid export growth by this fundamental measure, that’s why I think it's going to come. |
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| LISA |
Alright, thank you for joining us this morning Foreign Minister, Mr Winston Peters. |
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| LISA |
Let's bring our panel back in on the discussion, Chris Baldock – Winston Peters do you think that his brand the New Zealand First brand has been diluted by him taking up this portfolio? |
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| CHRIS |
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I think undoubtedly it's been diluted, I mean the whole mantra of New Zealand First which has been repeated and stated more than once is that you know they're all about keeping the government honest, and I'm just eager to know when Winston's gonna make his next speech on immigration for instance and I don’t think it's gonna happen. I think he's also got a huge problem I mean he's distanced himself from National and if the tide turns towards National for the next election you know I think in the public's mind, in the voters' mind, that is a serious problem, and I'm not sure he's got – I mean he talks about New Zealand First asking questions of the government, it's not him laying the questions down, but I'm not sure he's got the calibre of personnel in parliament to really make it work for New Zealand First, I think they relied very much on him standing up and getting stuck in and without him doing that I think they’ve got a big problem. |
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| LISA |
Audrey what do you make over this ongoing saga with the emails and the ones that we haven’t seen, the alleged telephone book full of emails? |
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| AUDREY |
Well yeah I mean Winston is sitting on a pile of emails written by Don Brash about himself and I think that this could be the reason why Mr Peters has intensified his obsession with Dr Brash this term, I mean it was pretty poor last term, this is why I'm very interested to see whether he's ever going to release them, I suspect that Dr Brash has written some pretty derogatory things about Mr Peters and how he might expect to win him over. I do agree with Chris that there's something missing that Mr Peters is really operating effectively as a Minister of government in the government and you know I'm actually waiting to see his first speech as New Zealand First Leader really rather than as a Minister of government, he's kind of two dimensional, you have opposition Winston or you have government Winston and you don’t have any Mr in between. |
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| LISA |
I know Winston likes to sort of scoff at the polls but 4.3% in the latest I mean there's some work to be done there, do you think he will end up standing in Tauranga again? |
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| AUDREY |
I don’t think so, I don’t think so, and I think the very fact that he wouldn’t confirm that today is confirmation that he won't, I mean it would be very easy to say, I think he will definitely stand next term. I think 4% polling is not a bad place for him to be in right now given the fact that he hasn’t really been that visible as New Zealand First Leader so I wouldn’t completely write them off next time. |
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| CHRIS |
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I don’t think he's gonna go back to Tauranga, I mean if you push his claims against Clarkson to one side there perhaps was a bit of a message there he would be better off seeking new pastures, but I still think the public have got a problem I mean he can explain it away all he wants, he was grandstanding during the election campaign with the red phones and the blue phones. |
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| LISA |
But he's not now. |
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| CHRIS |
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Then he said we'd sit on the cross benches on confidence and supply and then suddenly when it becomes convenient I take the baubles of office rightly or wrongly. |
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| LISA |
Alright we'll leave it there. |
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| FINAL THOUGHTS |
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| LISA |
Back to our panel for their final thoughts from today's show. Chris what would you like to say? |
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| CHRIS |
|
I think if we leave Winston alone for five minutes, I think East Timor raises – obviously is a concern for him – raises some serious questions. I think there was a line of thought that said that the international community pulled out too soon last time and while there was a lot of preparedness going on ready for the elections there we bailed out and did nothing to ensure long term stability, so I think there's some serious questions about how long we are gonna be committed in East Timor at this point and what that will mean for New Zealand. |
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| AUDREY |
I'd just like to put a plug in for a brilliant article written by my colleague Greg Ansley in today's Weekend Herald, great background and he has been there at least four times. Just on Winston though, I think he's going okay as Foreign Minister, adequate no stuff ups, no great successes but I think he will need something by the end of 2008, that was a very big call he made today suggesting there might be some movement in the 21 year stalemate. |
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| LISA |
So something to set the world on fire for Winston. |
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| AUDREY |
On the nuclear issue yeah. |
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| LISA |
Thank you very much to our panel for this morning. |
