| LISA |
At 90 years old the Labour Party is New Zealand's oldest political party founded on the principles of socialism modern Labour promotes itself as the party of the centre left, but with Michael Cullen's recent comments about the inflationary impact of wage rises and the debate over welfare dependency ignited by the death of the Kahui twins questions are being asked about who Labour really represents. Well Labour Party President Mike Williams joins me now. Ninety years on of Michael Joseph Savage was sitting here wouldn’t his first question be what happened to socialism? |
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| MIKE WILLIAMS – Labour Party President |
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No I think he'd be pretty pleased. |
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| LISA |
Why do you say that? |
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| MIKE |
Well I read a lot about the Labour Party's first conference in 1916 and the kind of objectives they had for employment, housing, education, health, and I think we're being very true to those principles under Helen Clark. |
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| LISA |
Well this is a party that was formed on the backs of blue collar workers though wasn’t it, ordinary people the disenfranchised, people with problems, I mean who are your core party supporters now, because some would argue that it's not those people any more? |
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| MIKE |
I think we've extended beyond that, you have to, obviously society's a lot richer now than it was in 1916 and the Labour Party's managed to move successfully into the middle class let's be real about that, I mean we got 935,000 party votes last time, they were spread all over the country, we have a very broad appeal and that’s quite conscious. |
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| LISA |
You said it's a necessity, why so? |
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| MIKE |
We simply couldn’t be elected on purely the blue collar vote these days. |
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| LISA |
Doesn’t that put you in a difficult position though, here you’ve got Cullen faced off with the unions over pay rises, the unions that were the backbone of the Labour Party, you’ve got Greens championing the Super Size Me campaign raising the minimum wage, are they basically stealing Labour's mojo. |
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| MIKE |
I wouldn’t have thought so, no I think Michael Cullen's been very consistent about the need for sustainable economic development, no great leaps forward, no great leap backwards, and I simply think that’s part of it and in government you have to balance all sectors, the unions, business, agriculture and I think he manages that very well. |
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| LISA |
How much are you alienating your core support base though in doing that? |
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| MIKE |
Not at all if you look at the results of the last general election. |
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| LISA |
If you look at say the latest UMR June poll it says that if there was an election tomorrow that National would win more votes with blue collar workers than you would get, what's that telling you. |
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| MIKE |
It tells us something about polls, I have a background of market research but I've become very dubious about political market research lately, I mean Television New Zealand's own poll put National 6% ahead three days before the election, Labour won the election by 2%, that is a delta of 8%, there's a simply unreliability creeping in there, and the feedback we had last night from the kind of people you're talking about was extremely positive. |
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| LISA |
Alright well Labour promised years ago that it would care for people from the cradle to the grave, I mean looking at the example like the Kahui family some people are not being cared for from the cradle to the grave, under what you describe as a socialist government, so why are these types of families slipping through the cracks what are you doing wrong? |
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| MIKE |
I think there will always be aberrations and people have free will, you can't tell people what to do. I do think we have to look at as Helen put clusters of beneficiaries, and I think largely because of the 90s you have people who are into their third generation of welfare dependency. Now that’s extremely difficult to break and we've been breaking that, unemployment fell to below 40,000 this week, we still have the lowest unemployment in the OECD but we're really down to the very hard nuts to crack and I think that we'll do it... |
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| LISA |
How? |
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| MIKE |
…because our track record - I think you got to approach these people personally and really change their whole outlook, there is a dependent culture out there but it's amongst a very very tiny group of people, the Kahuis are part of that. |
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| LISA |
But a tiny group of people when something goes wrong I mean it has an enormous impact on a wider society so they are significant. |
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| MIKE |
They certainly are significant and there's a lot of programmes aimed at addressing those people, obviously the programmes have not got to the Kahuis but I think that this is a wakeup call that we've still got more work to do, and we accept that. |
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| LISA |
Yeah well looking at your own caucus, Labour's own caucus, it hardly reflects this grass roots level of people does it, I mean you’ve got a bunch of lecturers, a couple of lawyers, teachers aplenty, I mean has the centre left got a little bit too elite? |
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| MIKE |
I wouldn’t have thought so I mean your normal criticism would have been that we've got far too many trade union people, and of course those are the representatives of that core Labour Party. |
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| LISA |
Have you lost touch with real people who have these real problems? |
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| MIKE |
I very much doubt that, again I refer you to the last general election. 935,000 party votes, 100,000 more than we got in the previous election, I think we've stayed very well connected to our base and I think the numbers prove that. |
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| LISA |
Not with Maori perhaps, you have a party, the Maori Party born out of dissatisfaction with the Labour Party, they got four seats they took what Labour would have counted as their due. |
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| MIKE |
I would again answer that by look at the vote that counts, the Labour Party's party vote in the Maori electorates was through the roof. |
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| LISA |
But say someone like Hone Harawira he could be perceived as a real man of the people, there he is hitchhiking home to his electorate each week, he's in touch with grass roots people. We look like we're gonna get another Maori seat and the Maori Party could snatch that away from you as well. |
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| MIKE |
I think that’s definitely a possibility but we're certainly not giving them away, and I would also point out that people were anticipating up to five new Maori seats, now the numbers that I saw last night suggest there may not even be a new one, and I think that’s a function of the Maori Party flirting with the National Party after the general election when they clearly said they did not intend to do that, I think that’s been a big turnoff in Maoridom and I think they will live to regret that. |
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| LISA |
What are you doing to freshen up the face of Labour, I mean I understand that your recruiting, who wants to be a Labour MP who are you looking at? |
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| MIKE |
Well the people – I don’t go out and recruit but people actually present themselves to me, I've had people from the business community, from sport, from the Trade Union Movement, from all sorts of areas in society who want to become Labour MPs and they approach me. It happened last night in Wellington. |
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| LISA |
Who? |
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| MIKE |
I'm not telling you obviously because they’ve got to go through the hurdles to be selected. It's not an easy process, it's hard to become a Labour MP. |
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| LISA |
Why would they want to become a Labour MP what's the incentive when there's just virtually no turnover in your cabinet, what opportunities are there? |
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| MIKE |
Well they want to join the winners, I mean we've won three elections in a row and nothing succeeds like success Lisa, that’s one reason, the other reason is a philosophical commitment, I mean we've got three major objectives which is to transform the economy, work with families like the Kahuis and build national identity. Now that’s a very attractive programme to a patriotic New Zealander who wants a career in politics. |
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| LISA |
Speaking of fresh faces what's gonna happen when Helen Clark eventually bows out, who's gonna be the next Labour Prime Minister? |
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| MIKE |
That will be decided by the caucus, and I was asked an interesting question by Vernon Small of the Dominion yesterday, he said to me is the next leader of the Labour Party in the caucus right now, and I had to think about that, but historically the answer is yes, but I couldn’t say, I can think of between six and a dozen people in that caucus who could lead the Labour Party. |
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| LISA |
Who? |
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| MIKE |
I'm not gonna name names. |
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| LISA |
Why not? |
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| MIKE |
Well it's like a baby contest isn't it, one is happy the rest are very unhappy. |
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| LISA |
So you think you’ve got six potential Helen Clarks to lead you through… |
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| MIKE |
Well I don’t know about Helen Clarks I think Helen is something special, I think she's the best leader the Labour Party has ever had absolutely second to none. I don’t think we'll be so lucky again. |
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| LISA |
The best? |
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| MIKE |
The best yeah I'd say that. I have a degree in history I'm intimately familiar with Labour Party history, she will be difficult to replace when she chooses to go, I hope that is a very long time away, but there are people who … |
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| LISA |
A long time beyond – I mean how far are you anticipating you'd like her to stay. |
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| MIKE |
Well we always think one election at a time, and Helen has committed herself to run in the next election as leader. I frankly hope there's another one after that, but that’s entirely up to her. |
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| LISA |
How likely is that? |
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| MIKE |
I don’t know. She has a life outside of politics, it's entirely up to her but as far as I'm concerned she's welcome to stay. |
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| LISA |
Have you put the direct question to her, have you directly asked her if she'd stay beyond – she's made it clear she wants fourth term, have you directly asked her about a fifth? |
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| MIKE |
No I certainly – and I wouldn’t, it always pays to think one election at a time, I think it's arrogant to go beyond that, you're up for the judgement of the people every three years and you make the best of that judgement and then you think about the next election, that’s how I work anyhow. |
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| LISA |
What about Michael Cullen, how long do you see him in his position? |
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| MIKE |
I'd say the same thing, it's entirely up to him and we're very pleased to have him. We think he's a very very steady hand on the tiller, he manages the cheque book very well and that’s what Kiwis value. |
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| LISA |
But will he still be in his job after the next election if Labour goes in? |
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| MIKE |
As far as I'm concerned he's welcome but it's up to him. |
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| LISA |
Alright, has he given you any indication? |
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| MIKE |
None whatsoever. |
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| LISA |
Let's bring in our panel here going firs to Michelle Boag, former President of the National Party, your questions for Mike on his birthday. |
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| MICHELLE BOAG – Former President of the National Party |
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Well yes I think birthdays are wonderful celebrations Mike and you must have enjoyed that down in the East Coast. |
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No I wasn’t on the coast I was in Wellington. |
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You we're in Wellington and it's a great time to look back and celebrate everything that has been achieved and I was at the National Party 75th anniversary a few weeks ago, it was exactly the same a great feeling and you deserve to stop and enjoy that for a little while which is great, but I think what's happened as we've seen the country grow and become wealthier, I think Labour has struggled with reconciling their philosophy of redistribution with the wealth that the country has now grown, and as a result we see for example a majority of New Zealand families now subsidised in terms of a welfare payment under the guise of working for families, and we see all sorts of incentives for welfare and for example Mike talking about the drop in unemployment the numbers of sickness beneficiaries have doubled, now we're not twice as sick as a nation as we were seven years ago. |
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| LISA |
So what's going on Mike? |
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| MIKE |
Certainly the drop in unemployment does not equal the rise in the sick benefit there are people going on the sickness benefit who shouldn’t be there I'm quite sure we have to police that, but I'd say that you’ve gotta go to the judgement of the people Michelle, that yes we do redistribute, my daughters benefit from that and I'm very happy they do, and the judgement of the people was that that’s what we want. |
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| MICHELLE |
Yeah but I think the issue is that in fact you create a whole group of people with a vested interest because their incomes are now being subsidised by the state because we've become much wealthier as a country and that’s what's happening with the Working For Families package where you’ve got a majority of working families with children now being subsidised by the state and I don’t think that’s healthy for the economy of the country and I think that’s probably the difference in philosophy that remains between Labour and National. |
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| MIKE |
Well I think that is a difference in philosophy and we accept that and we actually celebrate it, and I think what you're saying there is that what we're doing is giving a very large number of people an incentive to vote Labour and not to vote National. |
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| MICHELLE |
That’s right but your buying that support. |
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| MIKE |
I wouldn’t say that. |
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| MICHELLE |
With my money Mike. |
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| MIKE |
And with my money and I don’t mind, I don’t mind. |
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| MICHELLE |
Well you don’t but I do. |
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| MIKE |
I don’t mind some of my taxes going to my daughters, and I think you should be more open hearted about this Michelle, I don’t think you'd mind some of your taxes going to your children. |
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| MICHELLE |
Look I pay plenty of tax and I'd like it when it goes to the things we need but the fact is… |
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| MIKE |
You don’t think we need children? |
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| MICHELLE |
I have a child too, but the fact is that we are not leaving New Zealanders enough of their own wealth and the trouble is that the Labour Party… |
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| MIKE |
This is your fundamental National Party philosophy which basically goes the poor aren’t poor enough and the rich aren’t rich enough, now we simply don’t believe that, we think that’s a nonsense. |
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| LISA |
Alright well let's go to a person who was a former Labour Party President, is Labour still heading in the right direction, is it true to its socialist roots or should as Michelle says we be looking for tax cuts and another look at how we're distributing this wealth? |
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| BOB HARVEY – Former Labour Party President |
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Well I want to thank Michelle for wearing red, I thought that’s a lovely birthday gift for Labour indeed. Look I've been around Labour a long time, I knew Nash, I worked for Kirk, I worked for Rowling and Lange and I became the President when Helen came along, and so I observe trends if you like. I think that Labour own the 21st century politics, it's bigger than what you say, I mean you’ve got one kid I've got six so you know I kind of think of legacies and Labour I think Mike has taken the ground of the passion, culture and social issues. I think they’ve owned what you used to own way back in the 50s and they have picked up global trends and that’s why I think Labour have taken 90 years to blossom and this century, like the Chinese, will belong to them because they're smart and they understand strategic politics and you guys (National) have lost that and there's great – you asked Mike who's there – look at Cunliffe, look at that young Stewart Nash, these are the leaders of the future of this country and Labour has picked up the high ground because they're just smart about politics. |
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| MICHELLE |
I think what they're smart about is buying people's votes with tax money and the more tax money we have the more those votes get bought. |
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| LISA |
Are tax cuts buying people's votes as well and that’s what National is calling for? |
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| MICHELLE |
It's not just tax cuts though it's actually you don’t need to subsidise families whose income is a hundred thousand dollars and that’s the issue, that Labour is so desperate to keep redistributing they're redistributing in place where they don’t need to. |
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| MIKE |
Michelle you're not objecting to redistribution you're objecting to the level of redistribution. |
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| MICHELLE |
Absolutely. |
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| LISA |
Let's look at a family like the Kahuis for example, and let's look at beneficiaries, Working For Families' beneficiaries, what's in it for them? |
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| MIKE |
Well working for families that’s for working people, these beneficiaries are very well looked after. |
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| LISA |
That’s precisely the point Michelle is making are you redistributing to the right people? |
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| MIKE |
I mean the answer to that of course from the National Party ought to be we've gotta go for higher wages, but of course the National Party's bitterly opposed to that and spent ten years reducing wages in the 90s under the Employment Contracts Act. |
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| BOB |
Do you think we care Mike about those things any more, we're concerned about them but there are bigger issues, you know oil prices, global warming, we're a global economy, we are prosperous and that is what Labour has owned, prosperity. |
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| MICHELLE |
But hang on there's a whole huge slice of New Zealand society that is not prosperous and Mike in seven years it is significant and you haven’t fixed it by redistributing income. What you’ve put in place is an institutionalised incentive to be dependent and a whole lot of these people are relying on it, and in the Kahui family these clusters whatever you want to call them it is the result of institutionalised incentives, that’s where we need some radical restructuring. |
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| MIKE |
Yeah well I think the numbers simply disagree with that we had ten years in the 90s of the National Party's every man for himself tax cutting philosophy. We had hundreds of thousands literally of children move into poverty because of that. Under Labour's redistributive things we've taken 50 to 100,000 young people out of poverty. That is a vast investment in the future which National simply cannot understand, and we're hearing that here. |
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| MICHELLE |
I think we've got a difference of philosophy Mike and the fact is the country is so wealthy that Labour just keeps wanting to give it away and you're giving it away to a lot of people who don’t need it. |
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| MIKE |
Who? Give us a few names. |
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| MICHELLE |
Like families who earn 100,000 dollars a year who are getting Working For Families subsidies it's just not required. |
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| MIKE |
So at what point would you put the cut off point Michelle, because here you're gonna have to lose votes. |
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| MICHELLE |
Well this is the whole point you guys have done it to effectively win votes because you're buying the votes off these people, like they're too scared to vote against Labour cos they’ll lose some of their income. |
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| MIKE |
Well I mean what you're saying here you're disagreeing with John Key who's saying National will abolish the Working For Families programme. |
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| MICHELLE |
Don’t put words into my mouth Mike. |
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| MIKE |
That’s what you just said. |
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| MICHELLE |
No, no. what I'm saying is this is corruption of the whole system of government, that a government can use the country's wealth to buy votes and concede that and keep themselves in power. |
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| MIKE |
So tax cuts for the rich wasn’t National doing that. |
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| MICHELLE |
No tax cuts for everyone, everyone, everyone. |
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| MIKE |
What ten bucks for the average family. |
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| LISA |
Alright let's bring Bob in. |
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| BOB |
Mike who do you think will be the parties of this century, I mean this is the 90th anniversary. |
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| MIKE |
Well I'd say that we're going to be moving back into a two horse race I'd say that, you know Michelle's experience in 2002 was an aberration and I think that you will see you know a real fight between the two parties over these philosophical issues, and I think it's good we're having this discussion. |
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| LISA |
But as Bob said who is it gonna be between Labour and who? |
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| MIKE |
It'll be Labour and National. |
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| BOB |
I don’t think so. |
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| MIKE |
No, I think they're finished really, |
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| MICHELLE |
Come on! Come on Bob. That is totally unrealistic. |
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| BOB |
They are on the slippery slope to no recovery. |
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| MICHELLE |
Totally unrealistic. |
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| BOB |
No I don’t this so. |
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| LISA |
So who is the second party going to be Bob? |
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| BOB |
The Maori Party, I think the rise of the Maori Party and Labour, I think that will be the party of this century, I'm talking of 20 maybe 10 years 20 years up. |
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| LISA |
Why are you so convinced of that? |
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| BOB |
Because they understand the national spirit, they understand the national identity as Labour has, it's about capturing the mind of people and that’s what Labour has done so well, they reinvented themselves I think about 20 years ago really, I put it right back to Kirk, I put to Lange, I thought Lange was fantastic – I agree with you about Helen she is fantastic, but I think when the history books are written she will be right up there, but I think so will Fraser by the way, I think Fraser was right there. |
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| MIKE |
Yes I'd agree with that. |
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| LISA |
We will have to leave it there, thank you very much Mike Williams for coming in. |
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| LISA |
A former corporate lawyer with Simpson Grierson, Metiria Turei was also a member of the Random Trollops a satirical performance troupe which features regularly in the Hero Parade. A Green MP since 2002 Turei's responsibilities include health, Maori issues and justice, tipped as a future co-leader she joins me now. Well the Greens are re-evaluating their strategy what do you think is the way forward for your party is it more independence from Labour? |
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| METIRIA TUREI – Green Party MP |
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It is more independence, but we have always been a very independent party anyway, it's just making that much clearer to the electorate and it's also being more aware that we are the burgeoning new group of people in this country. My generation is a generation that recognises our limits to growth and that if we want to have a healthy society we need to have better social justice across the board we need better environmental policies, those things, that’s what's important to my generation, we are the new burgeoning middle class and that’s where the Greens can really speak to the electorate. |
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| LISA |
Why do you think there needs to be more space between you and Labour have they been taking you for granted? |
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| METIRIA |
Well I think they need to remember that we are an independent party and we've got our own mind, our own policies, our own agenda, and they need to meet our agenda, we don’t have to meet theirs. If they want to have a long term future in this country as a government I think they need to be much better to their friends which they haven’t been in the last few elections and they need to recognise that we can really contribute to the wellbeing of this country. |
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| LISA |
So are you one of the friends that they haven’t been very good to? |
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| METIRIA |
Well I think I've done relatively well out of the government and the selection specially in this budget with getting my environmental education funding, I was very pleased about that, it was great to get that support, but that I just one project there are bigger issues that need to be dealt with, Bob's already talked about climate change, peak oil, these are things that are important to us and to our electorate and to our constituency that are important to the country, the government needs to take them all seriously if they want to have a long term future. |
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| LISA |
There's been much talk about whether the Greens can work with National and whether they should be forming some allegiances there, realistically what kind of relationship is possible with National? |
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| METIRIA |
We work with them already on a case by case basis that’s fine, but they again have to demonstrate to us that their policy platform meets our agenda if they want to work with us in the future, and I think there has been a lot of spin about this issue, but this is not about the Greens changing our policies at all, this is about other political parties being more aware that we have an agenda that is secure and future focused and if they too want a long term future as a government perhaps some time in the future they will have to change their perspective and their policies to meet us. |
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| LISA |
But you have fundamental difference as around the Resource Management Act you know free trade, sustainable entity, Kyoto. |
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| METIRIA |
Everything really, that’s right, their social agenda, their economic agenda is terrible, and their environmental agenda is just appalling as well, so they really have a lot of work to do. |
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| LISA |
So you basically just ruled them out there. |
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| METIRIA |
Well they’ve got a lot of work to do they can fix that if they like, but it's up to them, and I think that’s what's the most important here, we've got our agenda if anybody wants to talk with us and work with us well then they have to work through their agenda policies themselves so that they meet our needs. |
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| LISA |
How seriously are you cultivating a relationship with the Maori Party? |
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| METIRIA |
Oh we have a great relationship with the Maori Party, we talk with them regularly on a personal level we have a great relationship with those MPs and they're doing a very good job as a new party in this parliament, I'm very impressed with what they're doing, we don’t always agree and that would be the case with every political party but where we do agree we can work together where we don’t agree we just …. |
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| LISA |
So what are the firm areas where you see yourself working together, we're expecting some kind of announcement on climate change alongside the Maori Party? |
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| METIRIA |
Oh the Maori Party are committed to dealing with climate change, they're one of the few political parties in parliament that really are and that’s great to see, so we'd hope to be able to work with them on that. There are some social issues that we'd like to work with them more on and we think that we can, constitutional Maori issues in particular, but there are some issues we disagree, they have supported Wayne Mapp's private member's bill for probationary periods for employment, and we completely oppose that and we'll oppose them in their position if they maintain it, so it's just the nature of the political environment to work with people where you can and then oppose them where it's necessary. |
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| LISA |
Is your natural fit with the Greens or is your natural fit with the Maori Party, I mean you’ve made statements about you know the state not having legitimacy and raised constitutional issues, why aren’t you in the Maori Party? |
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| METIRIA |
People ask me that question all the time, the fact is the Green Party provides the broad scope of policy and direction that I am personally committed to, it meets all of my needs both from a Maori and constitutional perspective from my lawyering perspective, from my environmental concerns and my social justice ones, I certainly couldn’t support the Maori Party if it votes for Wayne Mapp's bill, that is very very important to me, so you know the Green Party is where I fit politically and it's where people like me, just ordinary Maoris and ordinary people like me fit very well. |
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| LISA |
Tipped as a future co-leader, is that a job you would like? |
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| METIRIA |
Oh it would be great to be responsible for the Green Party some time in the future but that’s a long long way off, we need to awhi our own new leader first before we start thinking about things like that. |
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| LISA |
Alright let's bring in our panel. Michelle Boag. The Greens and National working together do you see it on the cards? |
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| MICHELLE |
Well I think what Metiria has described is quite feasible in terms of case by case legislation and that’s the nature of MMP, and that sort of thing will happen. I think the long term issue for the Greens is in terms of your representation of the new generation. I think the difficulty for you is that with your position on economic growth where you say you're totally opposed to what National stands for and really what Labour stands for and quite frankly what the rest of the world stands for when you look at a place like China which is now into economic growth in a big way, everyone's striving for economic growth, and this younger generation… |
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| LISA |
So are you out on your own economically? |
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| METIRIA |
No not at all there is a burgeoning – even industry is starting to realise that it needs to become more sustainable and that there are limits to growth and that’s what we're saying there are limits, they are physical environmental limits and there are social limits and we have to deal with our economic growth within those limits rather than pretending somehow that we can just continue to build wealth and wealth and wealth destroying the earth's resources in the process. |
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| BOB |
I think I've got a little warning, don’t be dragged into an economic debate, that isn't the Greens' agenda, and what was it the Maori agenda although it's there and must be there I think the agenda and I really like you so a big kia ora to you, I like what you say and I like where you're going, I think the whole future belongs to the cleaning up of New Zealand in terms of domestic violence, child abuse, the bashing of our kids, right now I think Maori and the Greens could take that issue and decide to do something about it, there's an interparliamentary group which I think is very important. I'd like to know where local government is in on that, we deliver at the community level that parliamentarians never do and yet we're not invited to that table, but do not go to the National Party, do not go there. |
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| METIRIA |
There's two things, economics is absolutely fundamental to the Greens' agenda and what we're trying to achieve because we cannot get ecological wellbeing or social justice if you don’t have an economic system that recognises that they are factors in the economic system and they need to be part of it, and at the moment our economic system is fundamentally based on destroying as many of the earth's resources as possible and using people without giving back to them so we need to really focus on the economic area, that’s important, the poor – the poor being part of it. |
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| BOB |
And indigenous people from the Inuit in Alaska right down to Maori in New Zealand, sea, you know water, land, that is what is being denigrated by our environmental crap that’s your issue. |
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| MICHELLE |
But a global issue that must be of incredible importance is the fact that the countries that are the worst polluters that are taking less account of their environment are the poor countries and it's only the countries that are wealthy that are able to have a conscience about those things. |
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| METIRIA |
But it's the countries who are wealthy who are in part or largely responsible for the poverty of those other countries. |
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| MICHELLE |
No I don’t buy that… they were poor before other countries got wealthy… |
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| LISA |
Well guys we are running out of time we will have to wrap it there. Thank you very much to the panel and Metiria today. |
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| FINAL THOUGHTS – GUEST COMMENTATORS |
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| LISA |
To our panel for their final thoughts on the day, Bob Harvey. |
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| BOB |
Yeah I want to come back to Labour and their 90th birthday and leadership, you know I think Michelle that’s what I wanted to bring out, that Labour captured leadership, flawed they may have been but terrific leaders and I'd just like to mention Kirk, Rowling and Lange, and I'd like them to be along this afternoon to the birthday bash. I don’t know about Mike Moore or Geoff Palmer but they were pretty damn good, and Clark is magnificent in leadership and that is what I'd like to add. Leadership in this country in our lifetime. |
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| LISA |
And it's still a party of socialists do you think Bob? |
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| BOB |
Sure it is, it's a party of the future, okay, today is about their past but it's this century as I said will belong to two parties, Labour and the Maori Party. Michelle I'm sorry about you. |
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| LISA |
Good time to bring Michelle in. |
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| MICHELLE |
Indeed, and I'm pleased that you’ve got those polls going on because they’ll show Bob as absolutely wrong and in fact Bob it is the National Party that is best placed to be the leaders of the country because they have got talent they have some fabulous talent in that new caucus and those are the ones that are going to be the leaders of the future and in fact the Labour Party is scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to get a couple of people they can hold up as new leaders going forward but in fact it's the National Party who has all that talent in the House and everybody knows that 27 new MPs, fantastic people those are the one that are going to lead this country forward and it's not going to be Labour and the Maori Party. |
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| LISA |
Well given that Bob's so enamoured with the Maori Party your thoughts on whether they're gonna be players or not. |
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| MICHELLE |
I think the Maori Party will be players and obviously the projected increase in proportions might mean that they become stronger but I can't see New Zealand as a whole looking to the Maori Party to be the natural leader… |
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| LISA |
Well thank you very much to our panel this morning Bob Harvey and Michelle Boag. |
