| LISA |
When Winston Peters met with the United States Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice last month she said it was time for the two countries to move forward in our relationship, this was seen as a significant development by the government who's keen to put aside our differences over nuclear policy, but what exactly does moving forward mean. Now Glyn Davies is the US Deputy Assistant Secretary for East Asia and Pacific Affairs and he joins me now from Wellington. Well before we move on to the substance of that meeting can you clear one thing up for us, Winston Peters' visit attracted a lot of attention for that interruption of Senator McCain was any offence taken by that, how was it seen in Washington? |
|
| GLYN DAVIES – US Deputy Assistant Secretary |
| |
Well what I want to do is avoid getting drawn into relationships between your press and your public officials, I mean the United States is a country that has a long tradition of a free and active and sometimes boisterous press and public officials who sometimes have strained relations with the press, sometimes excellent relations with the press, I'm not gonna get into handicapping to what extent your own Foreign Minister has at a particular a good or a bad relationship with his own press. |
|
| LISA |
Okay well let's move on to the actual substance of the meeting then what did it achieve do you think? |
|
| GLYN |
Well I think what the meeting achieved was it was an excellent first contact because it was the first time that these two officials had met and they talked about a range of issues, the talked about Iraq, they talked about Afghanistan, they talked about the Pacific, the Secretary expressed American appreciation for what it is New Zealand is doing, not just in the region but around the world, and so it was a good – between those particular officials a good first step. |
|
| LISA |
So when Condoleezza Rice says it's time for the New Zealand US relationship to move forward what does that mean in practical terms. |
|
| GLYN |
Well you know I think it means just that, you know I didn’t come to New Zealand to announce any great new departures, we're gonna take this step by step, what we're doing quite simply is exploring areas that New Zealand finds in its interests to move forward in that the United States agrees we ought to make progress in, and you know we'll take it one step at a time and see where we go from there. |
|
| LISA |
So would it be fair to say that one of those areas would be in the Pacific and I mean what do you see as some projects of things that we can be working together on there in the Pacific? |
|
| GLYN |
Well there's an awful lot in the Pacific, you know I made the point that in my talks yesterday at your Foreign Ministry that what might be on as I put it on page 20 in Washington, page 8 or 10 in Canberra is often on page 1 here when you're talking about what is happening in Fiji, in Tonga, in Papua New Guinea and so on so forth, so you have a great deal more sort of a sharper optic on that part of the world so we need to take advantage of that. |
|
| LISA |
Do you see the need for more regular meetings and at what kind of level between the US and New Zealand? |
|
| GLYN |
Well that’s a great point and we're talking about that, again I don’t have anything dramatic to announce but the truth is that we already meet quite a lot with New Zealand officials, one in particular that’s coming up in October is the Pacific Island Forum, that’s a meeting that perhaps the United States and New Zealand could get more out of if for instance we get together bilaterally. |
|
| LISA |
So if there was to be more cooperation between us in the Pacific I mean are you talking about formalising an arrangement, would it be a casual thing, are you talking about a sort of watered down version of ANZUS what would you imagine? |
|
| GLYN |
I'm not talking about a formal alliance or anything like that I'm really talking about a very practically based really a series of conversations both on the policy front, when we're talking about the provision of assistance, I mean you provide more aid to most countries in the Pacific than we do so I'm talking about really just making sure that where it makes sense work together. |
|
| LISA |
You mention aid there, our Foreign Minister this week has raised concerns about what he calls chequebook diplomacy in the Pacific, do you share his concerns and if so why? |
|
| GLYN |
Absolutely, I mean it's a great example of where the United States and New Zealand are really fully close together I think in the way we see what's happening. China is very active in the Pacific, they are exercising their diplomacy I think in a very sometimes subtle way but sometimes not, sometimes what they're doing is writing big cheques to Pacific Island nation to try and bring them around to their way of thinking. Taiwan is doing the same, so you have sort of a strategic competition that isn't always in the best interests of the states themselves and this is something that we're working on. |
|
| LISA |
So how concerned say the example, one of the examples Winston Peters referred to was obviously the unrest in the Solomon Islands, how concerning is this situation there in terms of foreign aid and what it might be resulting in in unrest. |
|
| GLYN |
Well that’s another great case where frankly you know you're a bit ahead of us, you're on the ground, you're involved with Australia which has the lead in RAMSI which is the regional effort there, so in many respects when I talked to your officials about the Solomons and about RAMSI and about what's going on I'm actually not doing a lot of talking I'm doing a lot of listening because they're the ones who know the lay of the land, they tell us what some of the plans are, I did the same thing in Canberra at the beginning of the week and you know we're here to find out what the two lead nations, Australia and New Zealand have in mind and how they're doing and on the whole I would say that RAMSI is a great example of multi national effort to help a nation get past some of its difficulties. |
|
| LISA |
Now we understand that America is looking at expanding the working holiday programme, it relationship with New Zealand there, what can you tell us about that? |
|
| GLYN |
Well that’s a work in progress, I mean right now it's a bit uneven, New Zealand and in fact I think Australia both allow American young people to come and work and live for a year and yeah we've watched how that’s worked it's worked very well, young Americans come back with a much greater understanding of your society and appreciation for it, and we're looking at whether we can reciprocate it, I think we'll be able to ultimately, but you know we've gotta run it through the lawyers and we've gotta run it through the bureaucracy and we've gotta make sure that the Congress is on board especially in this day and age post 9/11 when you know homeland security and guarding the borders is so important, so we'd love to take it beyond the four months or so that it is now and make it a full year and you know stay tuned, I think we may have something on that. |
|
| LISA |
So is that part of pushing the relationship forward, could we see that as an olive branch perhaps? |
|
| GLYN |
Yeah I think it fits in that general rubric I think it's all other piece, I think when we began to talk about extending the working holiday scheme we weren't necessarily thinking aha this is a big new departure with New Zealand we can patch it up we can you know link arms and move forward together into the sunset, we found that that was in our interests as much as anybody's given the fact that young Australians young New Zealanders you know when they come to the United States they leave a positive impression. So if like me you're working on the relationship it's a no brainer, try to see if you can't expand it, deepen it, make it work better. |
|
| LISA |
Alright Mr Davies we're going to bring our panel in now and first off you'll be speaking with Richard Long. |
|
| RICHARD LONG – Columnist, Dominion Post |
| |
Mr Davies welcome to New Zealand. Your boss Christopher Hill when he was here a few months ago, April, so much the same as you were saying about the Pacific and acknowledged New Zealand's role there, what I'm wondering is is it such a sea of problems, is it possible to deal with these, coordinate these in just casual conversations about some sort of formalised structure, I mean if you look at it from one end to the other you’ve got Timor, you’ve got Papua New Guinea, dreadful problems in the Solomons, semi feudal Tonga, I think there are looming problems in Fiji again frankly although I'd hate to see that, but can you just do this by conversations or does it need a structure? |
|
| GLYN |
Well there is a structure, we have an excellent ambassador here, Bill McCormick you have an excellent ambassador Roy Fergusson in Washington, we work together in APEC we work together in the ASEAN Regional Forum, your officials come to the United States with great frequency, Winston Peters one of the more recent senior officials from New Zealand coming to Washington, we come here a lot, it's no accident that I'm here just a few months after my boss Chris Hill was here because when he came back to Washington he said look you lot you guys who are working on this part of the world you know see what we can do, see how we can take it forwards, so you know structures, formalised meetings, you know bits of paper with blue seals on em, you know maybe in the future some time – it's not what we're talking about, we're talking about practical stuff, we're talking about how we can dovetail efforts, you know we're talking about staying out of each other's way if that’s what's needed here, but we've discovered that New Zealand has a great many capabilities and a lot to offer and it's thinking more about these problems than just about anybody and we want to tap into that. |
|
| DEREK FOX – Editor, Mana Magazine |
| |
Mr Davies I wonder whether the time for talking's really over because in reality in practical terms on the ground in the Pacific, the mainland Chinese and the Taiwanese really are making huge steps, I mean you don’t have to travel too far in the Pacific to see projects, practical projects, the people on the ground can't be – you can't blame them if they actually do want to see some progress there and if New Zealand and America and Australia don’t provide that why shouldn’t they turn to the Chinese and the Taiwanese because they're getting good practical infrastructure things built and I don’t think talking's gonna cut it. |
|
| GLYN |
Well you know that’s a good point, you know what we need to do is talk about stepping up efforts a little bit more, in point of fact the amount of money that New Zealand spends on the Pacific is really rather substantial given the economies of scale of your economy, Australia also very involved I think they give hundreds of millions of dollars Australian to Papua New Guineas for instance, I mean it's part of an aid development programme, what you are doing in RAMSI with Australia these are real concrete things, together you know we can coordinate De Martia's messages we sent to Beijing we sent to Taipei so it's not just passing cookies back and forth and drinking tea, it is talking about action we can take together. |
|
| LISA |
We're going to have to leave it there sorry gentlemen we're out of time, thank you very much for joining us this morning Mr Davies. |
|
| |
Coming up we cross live to Turangawaewae Marae with Profession James Ritchie, a close confidant of the late Dame Te Atairangi Kahu. |
|
|
| LISA |
As people reflect on Dame Te Ata's many achievements for Maoridom they also reflect on what her passing will mean for the future of the Kingitanga Movement. Professor James Ritchie is a former Director of the Centre for Maori Studies and Research at Waikato University, he was also a close friend of Dame Te Ata's. James Ritchie joins us now from Turangawaewae in Ngaruawahia. Good morning to you Mr Ritchie. How did you become an advisor and a friend of Dame, Te Ata's |
|
| PROFESSOR JAMES RITCHIE – Long Time Friend |
| |
How does one's life unfold. I've been associated with this marae ever since I first came on to it when I was 18 years old and I came up here with the Wellington Maori Group, Ngati Poneke, but then in 1964 when I came up to be of the founding professors at the University of Waikato it was then essential that I should start to build a bridge between the university and the community and of course Dame Te Ata was an essential person to contact and well really get to know that that was so easy because she was so approachable as a person, she was so genuinely interested in what the university might be able to do and then we were talking at the very beginning about that might match up with her own agenda as the Arikinui of Kingitanga and also one of the leaders of Tainui. |
|
| LISA |
You have actually described her as your mate, you were close to her so tell us what was she really like? |
|
| JAMES |
She was of all the people I've known a person who was wholly together, everything about her role as a mother, later a grandmother, great grandmother, as the leader of Kingitanga, as the person who moved out into the Pacific and carried around the world the mana of her lineage and her position, but it all sounds very formal you see she was just a very approachable nice person, easy to know and a great person to talk with. |
|
| LISA |
How has the role in the Kingitanga Movement evolved because of Dame Te Ata do you think, or during her time? |
|
| JAMES |
Let me tell you this anecdote, when I was first appointed to the University of Waikato a very senior bureaucrat in Wellington said to me don’t get too close to the Kingitanga, and you see I saw nothing else but that I had to get close to the Kingitanga, it wasn’t that I was a rebel and rejecting his advice, it's just that what that advice represented was a sort of threat as though Kingitanga was something to be afraid of, and what Te Ata has done is to gradually break down the barriers between the movement and the rest of the nation and other tribes, but also internationally. |
|
| LISA |
How significant was it that she's the first woman in this role, what difference did that make do you think? |
|
| JAMES |
She was very carefully coached by Te Puia, her aunt, and prepared for her role and Te Puia was herself described by Michael King in his biography of her as one of the most important women in the history of New Zealand, so she stepped into a position which had already been in some sense opened created and made not easy but familiar, that is that there were things that she could immediately start to do as she worked her way from having been really almost living a domestic life at Waihi, being a mother, seven children and so on, and then into the full elaboration of the modern role of being Arikinui of this extraordinary organisation, and it is an extraordinary organisation. |
|
| LISA |
Well one of the main reasons for the Kingitanga coming into being was obviously the confiscation of the land, with the Tainui settlement, with the advances that she has made is the time for the Kingitanga Movement passed do you think, has it had its day? |
|
| JAMES |
First a correction Lisa, Kingitanga did not arise out of confiscation, that didn’t come until 1865 after the Land War. No, Kingitanga arose in 1853 in the desire to get the tribes of the central North Island united in opposing the drift into land sales. Land sales had almost been constricted by the Treaty but then the hunger for land on the part of settlers led to an erosion of that position, so by 1853 it was pretty clear Maori people needed to do something to stop the land going and it wasn’t until 58 that the Kingitanga itself was established as really a land lead to give one another support in stopping the erosion of the ownership of the land. |
|
| LISA |
But having said that has it achieved its goals has its time passed do you think? |
|
| JAMES |
it did not achieve that goal because successive governments moved against that objective and once the Land Court was established in 1867 the second Maori King Tawhiau said do not go to the Land Court have nothing to do with that, but if the chiefs didn’t go to the Land Court others of lower status would go and they would lose their land anyway, and so there was a terrible crisis for Kingitanga and then later with the Land War and then the invasion and then the confiscation it was almost as though Kingitanga would at that point drift away and cease to be functional, but the people hung on and I cannot think of any other New Zealand institution that has survived through such tragic circumstances for 148 years to become what it is today, a really extraordinary New Zealand based New Zealand formed indigenous institution. |
|
| LISA |
Before the break we were talking to Professor James Ritchie about the future of the Kingitanga following the death of Dame Te Ata. Derek Fox can I ask you do you think there is any danger of this movement this position slipping into one of being just a figurehead? |
|
| DEREK |
No I don’t think so, I think if you look at what Dame Te Ata did and of course having said that it really depends who the successor is and you know how that person moves into the job but in her time she went from very strict things around her father's time where her mother and father didn’t travel that much she told me, you know they needed to be invited somewhere and it was quite restrictive and you're looking back to you know the 1930s when her father first came to power. She on the other hand has travelled all round the country, she's moved into doing things like being the Patron of the Kohangareo Movement, she's had huge work to do with the Maori Women's Welfare League, the Maori Language Commission, so all of these things. Now in terms of people often say oh yes but what about politics why haven’t they done something about politics. Well in fact in the time of the third king Mahuta the government of the day actually talked him into sitting in the Legislative Council Chamber briefly and then he realised … |
|
| LISA |
It didn’t go well did it? |
|
| DEREK |
there's not much mileage here, I'm out of here, and then other if you like political power structures came about like the people involved in politics in the Ratana Movement getting involved in politics, but in latter years the Kingitanga too has kind of got involved in politics, I mean Anaia Mahuta is Dame Te Ata's niece and she sits in parliament and often you'll here her talking about a Tainui or Waikato position when she's in parliaments. So Dame Te Ata herself kept above that domestic politic sort of level but there were other strands of the organisation that dealt with it. |
|
| LISA |
Let's bring in Professor Ritchie here. Professor Ritchie how powerful is the Kingitanga then as a collective force, I mean Derek Fox talks about not being overtly political but how powerful is it, it's said to have had the ear of various governments what's your thoughts? |
|
| JAMES |
Oh it's had the ear of successive governments and in that sense it's apolitical but it's also very political in the way in which it is aware of what is going on within the nation, but then also you see she had transformed what was just a local indigenous movement into part of a world wide movement of indigenous people and in that sense there's a sort of geopolitical perspective. As to the future Kingitanga rests not just upon its history and the history of any people who have gone through oppression and dispossession is likely to be carried on, but also it has a basic fundamental foundation in what Tawhiau the second Maori King did. What he did was to consolidate a value base and a social structure and a way of operating which has given this movement strength stability and continuity. |
|
| LISA |
How does it fit in in an environment now where say you do have a very strong Maori political voice, for example the likes of the Maori Party where is the Kingitanga's place in this? |
|
| JAMES |
This marae as a national marae is a place where anyone can come and have their say. In the days of Ngamanatoa when there were stroppy young people like Shane Jones in his youth or maybe Derek Fox in his youth, came on to this marae, the ways of operating on this marae came to bear upon those people to say right keep your passion, keep the strength of your opinions, but behave yourself, find modus vivendi which is going to be effective because that from the time of Wiremu Tamiana the first kingmaker onwards has been the search to try and find ways of putting in place those principles that Tawhiau laid down, principles of peacefulness, principles of negotiation, principles of finding solutions in a both/and rather than an either/or kind of framework. |
|
| LISA |
Alright let's bring perhaps a more mellow Derek Fox back in here. Where do you think the Kingitanga's place is with that strong political voice? |
|
| DEREK |
Oh I think it has a great role and it's certainly been a role that’s been developed in the last 40 years by Dame Te Ata, this is a woman who was born in a raupo hut with a dirt floor and in that time, that was the state if you like of the Kingitanga at that time when she was born. Her father became the King and then she took over and she's built it up, I mean you only have to look, there were 15,000 people there when I was down there in the course of the day yesterday, 15,000 people turned up to mourn this woman's passing, that says something, that says support, it says a whole range of other things, it says paying respect and so on for the person and also for the institution. Of course what happens next depends on who the next person is who takes over and that person has to be given a chance to find their way and to develop their particular style. You know Te Ata had a very long time, she was in the job for 40 years, she came in as a 35 year old mother, and she had around her a lot of senior advisors, well all those senior advisors with the exception of some stalwarts like James Ritchie have died and so towards the end she was saying things like well you know I have to work these things out kind of myself now, the new person will have a new bunch of advisors with today's sorts of things to deal with, you know the new person he or she will have advisors like Tuku Morgan who's the chair of the Tainui organisation and or other people like that, and so there will be a further modernisation of what happens as a result of this and I don’t think you can say it's gonna go in this direction or that particular direction, you know there will be a new stamp. Now one of the difficulties is that the last time there was a change it was 40 odd years ago, interesting to note though that there are changes going on in the Pacific at the moment, three quite different changes of guard. We have Dame Te Ata, we have the Tongan King not very well and unlikely to survive and then we have the head, the senior chief in Samoa. |
|
| LISA |
Thank you very much for joining us Professor James Ritchie. |
|
|
| GUEST COMMENTATORS |
|
| LISA |
Well this morning we're discussing the future of the Kingitanga, turning to Derek Fox. How much of a say would Dame Te Ata have had in this process before she died and how much weight would be given to her wishes and considerations? |
|
| DEREK |
I did a major interview with her three years ago now, nearly three years ago in which I asked her amongst other things about succession and she didn’t say too much really but what she said was oh well I've been talking to people and it seems like it may be time to return to a male, and that’s kind of as much as she said. |
|
| LISA |
Why do you think she thought it was time for a man in the role again? |
|
| DEREK |
I don’t know I mean she said other people were suggesting to her that it might be time for a king, and she would have had her own thoughts but it's absolutely correct that Tainui have always said, I've heard them time and time again saying hei a koto you know it's up to the motu and they of course and you can see that happening, it was happening yesterday where groups would come along and they'd speak and they'd say well of course we think it should continue with your line and it happened on you know two or three occasions yesterday. |
|
| LISA |
The fact that Dame Te Ata's eldest son in recent years has been being groomed what does that tell us, does it mean that a decision is already made, or is this a standby position or how should it be viewed? |
|
| DEREK |
Probably a prudent move, I mean I think that as she was unwell and she's been unwell for some time we've known that and although she hasn’t really allowed her illness to get in the way she's still you know where possible she would still go and if she could go somewhere with her portable machine she would do that but there were times when he was sent out to act on her behalf and that’s what happened with her when she was young, when her father was ill and he was ill for some time she would be sent out to represent him, although in those days it was mainly within Tainui because they didn’t travel widely so she would turn up at a pokae or something on her father's behalf. |
|
| LISA |
Alright well I understand that we have Hone Harawira joining us now from Ngaruawahia. Mr Harawira can you explain to us Ngapuhi's position on the debate over their successor for the Queen, what's Ngapuhi's position? |
|
| HONE HARAWIRA – Maori Party, Te Tai Tokerau |
| |
Well I'm not privy to the exact details of the discussions but I mihi to Sonny Kau and to Ngapuhi for putting forward their position that if it's – if now is the time to be broadening the scope of the Kingitanga to be more inclusive then now is also the time to be bringing more and more people to the table to ensure that those discussions encompass the whole Maori nation. |
|
| LISA |
Does Ngapuhi have someone they believe is a contender to take up the mantle of the Kingitanga? |
|
| HONE |
Ngapuhi have about 150,000 people who they believe could take up the mantle of the Kingitanga, whether or not they would all be chosen to be king is another story, but that’s Ngapuhi. |
|
| LISA |
So how fiercely will this be being debated behind closed doors do you think? |
|
| HONE |
The debate will always be behind closed doors, this is not a democratic election number one, number two neither is it an opportunity to look for a CEO, we're not after a CV here, this is a discussion about the importance of the Kingitanga, and it's importance to Maori people generally. I think Ngapuhi's position has been as much to honour the importance of Te Ata and what she's done to broaden the scope of the Kingitanga as it is to ensure a serious bid is made from Ngapuhi to be included in the discussions as to how the process should be from now going on into the future. |
|
| LISA |
Thank you for joining us this morning Hone Harawira. Can I come back to you then Derek Fox, behind closed doors how fiercely will the debate be going on? |
|
| DEREK |
I thought that was a good comment from the Minister of Foreign Affairs from Ngapuhi. My understanding of it and I've listened carefully to what Sonny Tau said, he came down he asked the question and I think it's – and he said well we got an answer and that answer doesn’t kind of allow us to be part of the ongoing discussion and so he's gone home, and I heard him saying these things. There's a genuine desire to see what do we do now, this is a punctuation mark in terms of the Kingitanga, what happens next. |
|
| LISA |
Derek Fox, tell us a little bit about the succession is going to work, what might be going on behind the scenes, we heard then from Hone Harawira of Ngapuhi, what's your take on how this is going to be worked out? |
|
| DEREK |
There will be one or two discussions behind the scenes but also what is happening is that as people come, as parties come and yesterday for example they had about 15,000 people turn up at the marae, some of them turned up at six in the morning and they weren't able to go in until eight o'clock when the gates were open because in that time in the morning the local people have a bit more time with Dame Te Ata and they have a church service and they get the marae ready to receive because getting 15,000 people through the gates is a reasonably difficult task and so they let them in. Now as different people stand up and speak they often give their preference they will say something and the Tainui people, and you imagine that group that went in they started at eight o'clock yesterday they didn’t finish till something like 4.30 yesterday afternoon before that particular group had passed through and that group included a heck of a lot of people, tribes from the eastern seaboard into the country, politicians, the Governor General, Prime Minister, all sorts of people like that, and so the Maori ones will indicate |
|
| LISA |
Who they would like to see. |
|
| DEREK |
Yes, or more precisely they would say something like he a koto it's up to you, we're leaving it with you, we're returning it to you, and so that’s happened in the course of the day and that’s all been noted, Tainui in the meantime you imagine they’ve gotta sit there not just for that group but for other groups and so they’ve actually got a couple of shifts going, they say we've gotta have at least a couple of speakers, a couple of shifts of speakers here, cos you can't just sit there for 15 or 16 hours a day welcoming people and doing that, and there's this mammoth pass that’s going on out the back of feeding people of having refreshments for people. |
|
| LISA |
While getting on with the business of choosing a successor. |
|
| DEREK |
And there are discussions just rolling around in those areas as well. But this is an opportunity not just to talk about the Kingitanga, some guy bailed me up and said what do you reckon about the Kingitanga should we just continue with the Kingitanga or should we form a Maori government you know so there's all that type of debate that’s taking place down there at the moment. |
|
| LISA |
Alright well we see there are just thousands and thousands of people there, if we can bring Richard Long in now and a lot of the people who've come through have been politicians paying their respects, we saw Dr Don Brash Leader of the National Party down there, tell us what is the National Party's take on the Kingitanga do you think? |
|
| RICHARD |
Yes you're right, Dr Brash and Gerry Brownlee the party's Maori Affairs spokesman visited Ngaruawahia yesterday and Gerry said to me afterwards that National supports the King Movement as a positive force in Maoridom but that’s not to say it won't evolve, actually Gerry had a very interesting comment to make as well, he said apart from being impressed about the huge outpouring of sympathy for someone who was regarded hugely highly as a person of great dignity across the spectrum, he was impressed with the number of kids, youngsters there and he said that he thought the role model set by the Iwi elders was of enormous benefit to those youngsters and he was quite impressed with that. |
|
| LISA |
In terms of globally Derek what are the connections and ties with say other monarchy in the Pacific? We have as we were talking about before the Tongan King who is very ill and then we have royalty in Hawaii, how has Dame Te Ata shored up those contacts> |
|
| DEREK |
She's maintained contacts with those people all along, in fact her first ever trip as a teenager I think she was 16 her grandaunt Te Puia talked the government of the day into providing them with one of our top line air force aircraft at the time a DC3 and they flew up to Tonga to attend the present king's wedding, so that was her first ever international trip and when they got there the whole thing was signalled again by this woman Te Puia who was a really bossy britches and she actually lauded it over about three or four of the monarchs but she was a very – you know a powerful force and when they got to Tonga she got out of the plane and she pushed the young princess forward and she said Ana and that was the sign you know the big sign. |
|
| LISA |
The beginning. |
|
| DEREK |
Yeah that was the beginning. |
|
| LISA |
Can you explain to us, there were comments made from say Tukurangi Morgan on the marae about settling the Waikato River claim, put it into context for us, was that the appropriate forum, how much sadness is there that this couldn’t have been settled in Dame Te Ata's lifetime? |
|
| DEREK |
It's not just that if you look at what the invasion came in 1860 or thereabouts you know it's been a hell of a long time and that’s one of the things that I think people need to think about when they're thinking about Tainui and the Kingitanga. You know it would be one of the worst hospital passes you ever got to have taken on the role of being the first king because shortly afterwards your territory was invaded, you were seen as being anti establishment, you got involved in a war, you lost almost all of your territory and your people were impoverished and so it's interesting I think for me as someone who come from the eastern seaboard to look and to say I think it's great that other Iwi are now taking an interest in the Kingitanga but through the hard yards it was Tainui who took it on the chin, took the thrashing and they’ve carried it all this time. |
|
| LISA |
We will have to leave it there thank you very much to our panellists. |
