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  Note: All transcripts are copyright to Front Page Ltd but may be used PROVIDED attribution is made to TVONE and Agenda AGENDA Presented by RAWDON CHRISTIE RAWDON Last week's socalled Treelords deal which handed over the central North Island pine forests to Maori is worth 400 million dollars more. It's the biggest Treaty settlement so far. Ngati Whatua in Auckland says they’ll be next with a settlement to their claim to some of the country's most pricy real estate. But despite this the Maori Party is ready to go head to head with Labour in the battle for the Maori seats this election, but why, what is the party's agenda, are they prepared to do any deals with Helen Clark or are they waiting for a John Key government. Co-Leader, Tariana Turia is with Guyon Espiner now. GUYON ESPINER Well Tariana Turia you heard Rawdon mention the central North Island claim there, by the time we get into the election the deadline for historic Treaty claims will also have passed. Do you think that the Treaty settlements process is largely behind us now?
TARIANA TURIA – Co-Leader, Maori Party Well no because there's still a lot of settlements to complete and I guess in the C&I deals Sir Graham Latimer and the Maori Council and the Federation of Maori Authorities did a great job 20 years ago to in fact get the government to keep their hands off those forests and 250 million of the money that’s accumulated has in fact come from the rentals of those forests. So they did a great job and of course we're very very pleased to see that deal being completed and of course the Maori Party always raises that within these deals that are made with Iwi there are those who are disenfranchised and of course we are seeing those who have been left out coming forward now and saying so. GUYON Do you accept the deadline and will Maoridom accept the deadline of historic Treaty claims to be lodged by September 1? TARIANA Well there's been a lot of concern that’s been expressed, we're hearing it from the Waitangi Tribunal where they're saying that there will be many people who don’t in fact understand the process, that have not been engaged with the government and it's really important, and there's no reason to have a deadline for all of the settlements. GUYON So that begs the question will these settlements that we've seen not only this week but the others, will they be full and final or do you expect future generations to come back and ask for greater redress? TARIANA Well I think that what we've got to consider is that Iwi are wanting to move forward and so they're accepting settlement you know something between one and three percent of what's taken. For settlements to be durable they have to be just and I guess the future will tell us whether that’s what people think. GUYON We saw in the settlement with the central North Island claim some speculation whether Iwi were going to share carbon credits under some of these deals. Now of course to have an Emissions Trading Scheme you need the legislation, is the Maori Party going to support the government's Emissions Trading Scheme legislation? TARIANA Well we're not saying right now whether we're going to support it or not. Well there's three 1990 forests that don’t come into the scheme but more importantly what we're concerned about is the way the Emissions Trading Scheme is right now is that every day householders, small businesses, they're the ones who are going to pay not the big polluters who've been given … GUYON So you’ve asked for a compensation package along the lines that New Zealand First is also after, is that part of your negotiations with the government here? TARIANA Well we haven’t entered into negotiations yet with the government on the ETS scheme. GUYON Really – you haven’t spoken to them about it? TARIANA Not in recent times. GUYON And so what's your position at the moment, which way do you think you're going to lean on this? TARIANA Well at the moment we're waiting to see whether the government in fact reduces the time that they're allowing the major polluters to come into the scheme, we're really concerned that that’s a long time. There are things that people can begin to do now, and that includes big business, and that includes the agricultural sector. GUYON So you want those people to be brought into the scheme, agriculture be brought into this scheme at an earlier time so that they can share the burden with consumers? TARIANA Well we think so otherwise they become the beneficiaries of being the biggest polluters of all because then the government allows them to buy carbon credits, buy their way out, and allowing them to wait until 2015, 2018. We think that’s unfair to everyday New Zealanders who will have to start paying from the time the scheme goes through, the bill goes through parliament. GUYON Okay let's talk about the Foreshore and Seabed Act, it was a major catalyst for the formation of your party, but now we're seeing Iwi coming forward and exercising or negotiating their rights to territorial and customary rights under that legislation. What will happen to those deals if you are successful in repealing that act? TARIANA Well you know the government can always work with those Iwi to ensure that nothing that happens in the repeal in fact affects the arrangements that they have, and if you look at other pieces of legislation the kind of arrangements that they have in fact exist in other pieces of legislation as well. What the government's done is they’ve brought them all together and entered into these arrangements with Iwi, which is the right of Iwi to do that. GUYON But you're in a difficult position here aren’t you, you’ve called those arrangements a charade and paternalistic, you said on the 5th of February around about Waitangi Day this year, and you want to repeal the act you're supporting those deals. TARIANA No I'm not supporting the deals… GUYON Well you're voting for them. TARIANA I am supporting Iwi's right to enter into arrangements with the government as they see fit, both of those Iwi who are entering into arrangements with the government were also opposed to the Foreshore and Seabed legislation. What I'm saying is they're making the best that they can out of what exists today, neither of them have come to us and said that they don’t want it to be repealed. Their rights were sacrosanct before the legislation, what this is is the government giving them rights, their rights existed before the government took the Foreshore and Seabed. GUYON What chance have you got of repealing this act, I mean neither National nor Labour voted for your bill that was going to repeal, look I mean have you got any chance in repealing this legislation? TARIANA Well let's wait and see what the negotiations turn up after the election. GUYON So that will be a high priority for you if you are say negotiating in some form with National? TARIANA Oh absolutely it will be. GUYON And what about the prospect of National as a coalition partner, I mean is that realistic? TARIANA Well we've worked constructively with both Labour and National during this term of government and we intend to continue to do that, we've built relationships right across parliament. It's our view that whoever the government is … GUYON But we both know though don’t we Tariana Turia that it's almost certain if you're looking at the polling at the moment and you're listening to constituents as I'm sure you are, that National is going to be the leader of the next government, you're going to have to work in some way with a National government aren’t you? TARIANA We'll wait until the election is over, you know we're looking at polls now, yes there definitely has been a trend, but it won't be the first time that there's been a trend and we've come up to the election where it's come a lot closer together. GUYON Let's look at your position because United Future and New Zealand First to a degree have a relatively simple position in that they will negotiate first with the largest party. I mean what is your strategy, do you see a democratic obligation if you like to go and talk to the major party first? TARIANA What we did last time was we talked with both of them, we went back to our constituency to basically get their clearance on who it was that they wanted us to go with and we're going to do that again… GUYON Will voters know going into the polling booth though, will the Maori voter going into the polling booth know which way the Maori Party and which parties they're to work with? TARIANA What we've done is we've been going around the country, and we've done that over the three years…. GUYON Can we get a yes or not on that though because it's quite important isn't it? TARIANA No because it isn't a yes or no answer Guyon, the fact of it is that our constituency have continued to talk about post election arrangements right from the last election. GUYON But don’t they want to know going in…? TARIANA Well they haven’t said to us they want to know. GUYON So they don’t? TARIANA Well they haven’t said to us they want to know and what they're pleased about is that in the end they’ll have a say. GUYON And what about John Key, I mean we saw this week him getting some criticism for perhaps glossing over some of the less comfortable aspects of our history, did that tell us something about him as a character as a politician, as a man, or was it just a semantic argument about what constitutes a civil war or not? TARIANA Oh well I think that all of us make mistakes you know quite often we're put into situations with the media where we're being asked questions, he wouldn’t be the first person to make a mistake, he clearly made one on that occasion. GUYON And what about their position on the Maori seats, I mean to many this looks like a suicide pact if you were entering into any sort of deal with the National Party given that your whole reasons for being in parliaments is based on those constituency seats, are you going to have to say to those guys look it's off the table? TARIANA Well it'll be on the table for discussion if we decide that we're going to go into an arrangement with National, of course it would be one of the principle issues that will be on the table. GUYON And are you worried I mean because from memory it's 2014 that they start the process of abandoning the seats, I mean is that timeframe – I mean can you live with the fact that it's a bit on the back burner or do you want to go in there and say look no Maori will decide when the Maori seats go? TARIANA Well that’s what we believe, it's a constitutional issue, it's not an issue of race and privilege and so we will be definitely going in there this time asking them to give very serious consideration to their position on the these seats. GUYON And what about ministerial roles, I mean you would have looked quite closely at what United Future and New Zealand First have done where they’ve obtained ministerial positions and still not had to be part of an actual government and part of a Cabinet. Is that the sort of arrangement that the Maori Party may look to? TARIANA Well I think that MMP really allows for a range of arrangements with the government, and that’s been shown with United Future, the Greens and with New Zealand First, but one doesn’t need to be in coalition, I mean in the end the most important thing for me is not about the baubles of office to give you power, but to have the power to make a difference and that’s my main interest. GUYON Can I ask you about your relationship now with Helen Clark, I mean what is it like, you had a lot of tension in the past, do you get on with Helen Clark now? TARIANA Well the tension was around the Foreshore and Seabed issue and I guess that will always remain a tension between ourselves and Labour as the seats are with National. GUYON Do you speak to her now? TARIANA Yes I do. GUYON So the relationship is a lot better than it was a few years ago? TARIANA Two years ago yes. GUYON Can I ask you before I leave it, do you see the next term as your last term and if so who's your successor as a female co-leader for the Maori Party? TARIANA Well I don’t know who will be the female successor as co-leader for the Maori Party, that’s for the party to decide, but yes this is going to be my last election, I'm raising a granddaughter, six years old, there's a lot that I want to do for my granddaughter and nobody's indispensable. GUYON Will you see the term through though? TARIANA Oh yes definitely. GUYON Back to you Rawdon. RAWDON It's the turn now of myself and the panel to try and talk a little bit further through the Maori Party's situation. Kathryn. KATHRYN RYAN – Radio New Zealand Yes, good morning Mrs Turia, if I can put a question to you. I want to ask you – your results at the last election within the seats that put you into parliament, the Maori electorate seats, the party vote for the National Party was around 4%. Does that leave you in a hopeless position in terms of being part of putting that party into government? TARIANA Well at the end of the day I've already said that our constituents will make that decision. The interesting thing about that that as we've gone around the country there's actually been quite a change of attitude. KATHRYN So what are your constituents telling you now about who they want you to support in government? TARIANA Well they're starting to tell us that they can't see much difference between Labour and National. BARRY SOPER – Newstalk ZB But then surely you do Tariana, you see a difference that here's the National Party that says they're going to scrap the Maori seats which is a bit like a turkey applying for an early Christmas surely in your case? TARIANA Yes and of course we saw the Labour Party take away the Foreshore and Seabed without allowing due process, so you know we're caught in between two political parties that in fact have never ever been committed to being Treaty responsive to Maori people. BARRY So you’ve got two issues there, you’ve got the Foreshore and Seabed legislation, that'll be a bottom line presumably for you, that they should be scrapped. TARIANA Absolutely, as will the seats. BARRY As will the seats. TARIANA Yes. BARRY On both sides. So to me that would indicate you'll simply sit on the cross benches. TARIANA Well it may well be. BARRY Because you're not going to be accommodated by the major parties. TARIANA Well it may well be, let's wait and see what comes out of the negotiations at the elections. BARRY Would you be comfortable on the cross benches? TARIANA For myself personally, I think that what the Maori Party are saying that we do want to have some influence on policy you know and influence in the way some decisions are made that are going to impact on Maori people, and we'd like to do that, how we do that of course we haven’t decided because like I said before there's a wide range of opportunities in an MMP environment. BARRY You said in the interview with Guyon that the Maori seats weren't in a race or privilege situation. TARIANA No they're not. BARRY But that’s exactly what they are surely and now there's a very large representation of Maori in parliament, why should you have dedicated seats to the Maori population? TARIANA Well if you think about it it's the first time in the history of parliament that we have had a dedicated Maori voice that has spoken 500 times on every single piece of legislation. What we've been able to show is that we're there a lot more about the wider issues confronting New Zealand, and it's a constitutional matter. KATHRYN Can I ask you about that? You used the phrase we want the power to make a difference. What does that represent? TARIANA That’s right. KATHRYN Does that mean that you want a ministerial post whether or not you are inside a government, you want the same deal as Winston Peters has? TARIANA No I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying we want the power to influence, and I guess that in an MMP environment there are a range of options available to you. BARRY Do you believe you'll have that power sitting on the cross benches? TARIANA Well that remains to be seen, it would depend on who the government is and what arrangements they want to come to with us, it's actually more whether whoever is the government would want to come with us and accept the policy planks that we want to put forward. RAWDON Surely the proposal of having one of your members with the Maori Affairs portfolio in the next government is where the most work could be done, the most ground could be gained? TARIANA Well you know when you look at all of the portfolios there are significant Maori issues right across them, Health, Education, Social, Justice, Environment, Land, so there's a lot of portfolios that our people have an interest in and as I say because we've spoken on every single piece of legislation I think that shows we have an interest in all of them. BARRY I wonder Turiana whether you’ve still got the fire in the belly that you know we saw very early on when the Maori Party was born Foreshore and Seabed, now you're being very conciliatory not just to John Key but to Helen Clark as well, what's happened to the old protesting Tariana Turia? TARIANA Ha, ha, ha, I don’t know whether I was ever a protesting Tariana Turia. BARRY Well you were you were a Wanganui garden gnome I remember at one stage. TARIANA Yes well you know, I've been many things in my lifetime, and what I'd like to think is that as a political party we want to be inclusive of all New Zealanders, we want a country that values and respects everybody and so therefore of course I'm going to be promoting those ideas as a leader of the Maori Party,. KATHRYN I want to come back to that question again of the ministerial role. If you’ve got an interest in a whole bunch of portfolios would a Maori Affairs ministerial role give you the hand in all the pies if you like, or are you suggesting you might take on a different kind of portfolio? TARIANA Well we haven’t said we're gonna take on any portfolio actually. KATHRYN Then how do you have that power, short of bringing a government down how do you have power once a government's formed? TARIANA Well I think there's other ways of influencing government, the Greens have shown that with no ministerials and in the end we don’t want to get… KATHRYN The Greens were heartbroken they're not in government. TARIANA Well you know… KATHRYN And they believe themselves powerless because of it. TARIANA Well that’s for them to talk about, but I think that what we're saying is, is that we don’t want to get ourselves into a position where we lose our independence. BARRY And you surely will lose your independence though if you go with one of the major parties. TARIANA Well that’s to be seen. BARRY Well don’t you see that though, don’t you see that as a reasonable argument, I mean you’ve always sat out and in fact made some very good points in parliament and furthered the cause of Maori. Sitting with a major party you're not going to have that same influence. TARIANA Well that’s possibly true, but I think that we need to look at what MMP brings to parliament, what can be achieved under MMP and the Maori Party is actively considering those matters, talking to our constituency, talking to our party. KATHRYN Can I ask you what you're going to say to your constituency going into this election, what are you going to bring the, because going back to those results Labour's still taking over 50% in the Maori electorates, 50% of the party vote, they're still pretty popular it appears judging on the last results, what are you going to say to Maori, this is what we will deliver, this is why you give us your party vote as well. TARIANA I think their party vote has dropped considerably more than 50% but you know who knows, we go around the country, we're talking to our people constantly, we're probably the one political party that is always in front of our people. Now our people have not at any point in the last 18 months raised any issues about who it is we should go with. KATHRYN I asked you about subject matter, is it still going to be Foreshore and Seabed repeal that you're going with? TARIANA Oh no look we've shown Kathryn in parliament that everything that’s going on in parliament is important to us. We've spoken 500 times, if that doesn’t show the country and our people that we know that there's a Maori perspective to every single issue that is confronting this country and we've shown that. BARRY Surely though Maori sympathy you'd have to say your constituents are with the Labour Party and not the National Party, I mean they’ve always held the Maori seats, you’ve got them now, and you hope to get the lot of them, but surely the sympathy is more with Labour and certainly with National. TARIANA I think what our people are starting to realise though is that when they voted Maori people into Labour they never got a Maori voice, they got a Labour voice and that was the difference, and they’ve only begun to realise it since the Maori Party came into parliament, because it is the first time that they have heard significant Maori issues raised on a daily basis. KATHRYN They were still the major party though, it was a Labour government that’s just delivered them the Treelords Treaty deal, with that sort of power and that sort of grunt. TARIANA Well let's see. RAWDON Okay let's look – we've talked a lot about the Foreshore and Seabed Act repeal, we've talked a lot about the seats, what other areas of policy will you want to bring into any coalition discussions? TARIANA Well of course we're interested in Education and Health, we see whanau wellbeing as tied to all of those issues, so we're very interested in that, we want to see a greater commitment to Treaty settlements but we want the Treaty settlements process to be changed, to be looked into, at the moment it's incredibly one sided, the government calls the tune basically and so we want to see a change to that particular process. We want to see our people engaged in the economy in a sustainable way, not on the fringes as they are generally now. BARRY I just wonder Tariana when you look at the settlement this week 100,000 Maori are apparently affected by that settlement. TARIANA It's wonderful, it's wonderful. BARRY Well it is, but do they see the benefits, that’s what I wonder that are the benefits are they trickled down to the people that actually need to see the benefits? TARIANA Well I think that all Iwi are handling the settlements differently, I mean if I take Ngaitahu as an example they have educational grants, they have money that goes out to their Papatipurunanga for them to address issues, they’ve got a major Te Reo strategy which they’ve invested heavily in. So I think that each Iwi does things quite differently that’s their right to do that and I wouldn’t know what these Iwi are going to be doing… BARRY And is it going to better the poor statistics that we constantly see involving Maori? TARIANA Well I would hope that it would address some of them, but many of those poor statistics lie in the hands of the government as well and we shouldn’t expect settlement to address all of those issues. RAWDON Okay Tariana Turia thank you very much for joining us this morning, I think we'll leave it there and no doubt we'll hear again from you in the next three or four months. |
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