Note: All transcripts are copyright to Front Page Ltd but may be used PROVIDED attribution is made to TVONE and Agenda
AGENDA
Presented by RAWDON CHRISTIE
MEET YOUR GREENS
RAWDON Since the Greens entered parliament in the late 90s they’ve been a solid force to the left of Labour, but lately they’ve started to fall in the polls and many of the policies that they pioneered have now been adopted by other parties with even National committing to the Kyoto climate change regime, so have they lost their mojo. Co-leader Russel: Norman is with Guyon Espiner.
GUYON ESPINER
Well Russel Norman we're constantly told now that efforts to reduce global warming are gonna help push up the price of food of power and of petrol, is there now a deep conflict between the two constituencies that you represent, that is the low income and the environmentally conscious?
RUSSEL NORMAN – Co-leader Greens
I don’t think so I mean if you look at something like fuel for example we know that we need to reduce our consumption of fuel in order to reduce greenhouse emissions, but we also know that the price of petrol just because of you know the international market is gonna keep going up and up which means the only solution that makes any sense for both of those particularly in the cities is more public transport. So it brings together both an environmental reason you know to reduce greenhouse emissions, but also you know it's a social justice issue in order that people can afford to get around our cities and towns as the price of petrol goes up.
GUYON Is it a good thing do you think that the price of petrol and of power is going up because really isn't that the only way that we can encourage people to use less of those things?
RUSSEL I wouldn’t necessarily say it's a good thing or a bad thing I'd say it's an inevitable thing, there's only so much oil in the planet, demand keeps rising, the capacity to supply it is finite you know it's a finite world which is what the Greens have been saying now for decades, inevitably that demand was gonna hit the supply curve and the price would go up, so it's inevitable that it was gonna happen. Obviously the fact that petrol is increasing provides an incentive for people hopefully to look at alternatives, but we actually need the government as well to intervene to make sure that those alternatives are there as that price goes up.
GUYON I put it to you that the Greens are in some trouble in the polls because your issues, climate change, safe food, opposing spy bases in New Zealand, are now luxury issues when people are struggling to pay the bills.
RUSSEL I don’t think you'd say that if you were trying to around Auckland, yeah I mean getting around Auckland with petrol at two bucks a litre and it's only going to increase further is you know to me a key issue not just of the environment but of social justice.
GUYON But the problem is we're still deeply reliant on roads on cars on petrol, I mean the people that you're supposed to represent in some ways the lower socio economic groups they need those as much as anyone else.
RUSSEL Well I'd say that the Greens represent across the spectrum, I think that there are people right across New Zealand who care deeply about the issues around climate change and rising fuel prices, so I wouldn’t accept that framing of it I think we represent people right across the board and I think that they are all getting their heads around the fact that the end of cheap oil for example is over and we need to invest in public transport options and that brings people in across the board, we all need much better public transport, we need the government to invest in it and they're not doing it.
GUYON Okay we mentioned the Green's opposition to the spy base in Waihopai which was damaged in some protest action this week, do you support those actions of those protesters?
RUSSEL well most of all what I'm most against is the US war in Iraq.
GUYON I'm asking you whether you supported that protest action.
RUSSEL I don’t condone it, you know I don’t condone it, but nor will I condemn them because I totally understand their motives, you know here we are the United States…
GUYON Is it a legitimate thing to do though?
RUSSEL It had a legitimate objective which was to try to stop the US war machine.
GUYON Was the action legitimate?
RUSSEL The Green Party is focused on changing the law …
GUYON Was the action legitimate?
RUSSEL I don’t condone it because it involved you know this breach of property, but you know I think all of us know that the real issue is the war in Iraq I mean that is the terrible thing that’s happening, the hundreds of thousands of civilians that are being killed in Iraq, because of the US war machine this is a part of the US war machine.
GUYON Did you or anyone in the Green Party know that that spy base was going to be targeted before it happened?
RUSSEL I certainly didn’t, I'm not aware of anyone in the Green Party who did.
GUYON Did you ask? You're the Co-leader of the party.
RUSSEL How could I ask about something that before it was gonna happen.
GUYON Have you asked since it happened?
RUSSEL Oh, did I go round saying who knew about it? No I didn’t. I haven't asked who knew about it.
GUYON Is it still the Green Party policy to abolish the Government Communications Security Bureau?
RUSSEL Certainly it's our policy to get rid of its function of working for foreign governments, you know we don’t want to be part of the US war machine. If you could use those satellites for peaceful purposes then you know obviously that'd be fine, but the point is they are part of the US war machine, I don’t want to be part of that machine.
GUYON But your previous policy has been to abolish the GCSB, is that still your policy?
RUSSEL Yeah that’s still our policy.
GUYON So we don’t need any foreign signals intelligence, I mean going into a combat zone like East Timor 1999 they Greens supported that action, so we not need any foreign intelligence about what sort of environment we're going into?
RUSSEL No I don’t agree with that.
GUYON I'm wondering whether we do.
RUSSEL And I think that’s a fair point right, obviously if we're involved in somewhere like East Timor then you know it's fair enough to say that we do need some kind of foreign intelligence…
GUYON We wouldn’t have that under your policy would we?
RUSSEL Well no no we would because the GCSB is an agency that’s set up to integrate us into the US war machine, we don’t support that.
GUYON It also does a great many other things.
RUSSEL Yeah so, so if you take away the functions that we think are detrimental to human wellbeing like the war for oil that are in the Middle East and if you just focus on the functions peace keeping then I think that’s fine.
GUYON So you want a peaceful version of the GCSB?
RUSSEL Yeah we'd support a peaceful version of course, I mean we don’t want to be part of a war for oil in the Middle East, I mean who does.
GUYON Let's go to one of your four principles of the founding document in your party, it is and I quote 'non violent conflict resolution'. Now how far do you extend that, I mean is this a pacifist party?
RUSSEL I think that there are pacifists within the party, I don’t think that probably everyone within the party would be described as a pacifist.
GUYON Yourself?
RUSSEL Myself you know generally I think war is not the answer to problems but if you were to look at something, you know the Second World War, should New Zealand have been involved in the Second World War personally I think yes, that’s my view because I think you know it was fascism it was an attempt to destroy liberal democracy and you know liberal democracy has its problems but it's a lot better than fascism.
GUYON That’s interesting, so it's a case by case basis for you, you're not a pacifist by principle.
RUSSEL No personally, I mean the party position as a general rule and what we always try to do is look for non violent solutions to conflicts.
GUYON What about you mentioned the Second World War, let's fast forward to something a bit closer to home and this is this issue I guess of Islamic terrorism you saw with the Twin Towers and the global response was to go into Afghanistan, our own contribution was the SAS I mean was that the right response?
RUSSEL Not in Afghanistan, Afghanistan was a ridiculous – I mean the response in Afghanistan didn’t make any sense to the threat. I mean if we want to you know reduce the threat of terrorism in the world then obviously we need to actually work for peaceful solutions in the Middle East because we know that that was the driver of what happened at 9/11, it's the driver of Islamic terrorism around the world is what's going on in the Middle East.
GUYON Isn't that gonna be really where the rubber hits the road, should the Greens be part of actually formally part of any government, you saw the alliance fall apart didn’t you after 2001 because of the deployment of the SAS into Afghanistan, you saw a similar problem with the Green Party in Germany when Joshka Fisher was the Foreign Minister. I mean can you genuinely be part of a government when your posture on security and defence is to radically different from either of the main parties who would lead a government?
RUSSEL Well the German Greens, I mean take that as an example I mean they found a way to basically be a peacemaker and you know they worked within the European framework so that Europe didn’t sign up to the US war of terror in the Middle East, and I think that made a huge contribution. The role of the German Greens and Fisher in that was absolutely central to keeping Europeans out of the Iraq War and keeping ourselves out of it because it kind of gave a bit of courage I think to the government here to keep out of it. And then the second is the alliance example remember they split internally. I don’t think the Greens are split like that internally I mean we are much more united, I mean the history of the Greens is you know we've hung together through all the different trials and tribulations.
GUYON Okay and now you are co-leader and a co-leader who's not an MP, how important is it for you to come into parliament before the 2008 election?
RUSSEL It's not essential would be my response.
GUYON It would be easier for you though wouldn’t it?
RUSSEL It would be easier in some ways there's no question and I've never pretended otherwise, you know Nandor and I when we were in co-leadership contest nearly two years ago now we both said that, but you know it's not essential. I think I've don’t okay as co-leader outside parliament, I could do better but you know I'm doing okay.
GUYON When is Nandor Tanchos going to leave parliament and allow you to come in?
RUSSEL That’s still up in the air actually.
GUYON You don’t know?
RUSSEL No, there's no solution to that yet.
GUYON Have you asked him, I mean it seems extraordinary really.
RUSSEL Oh no we talk about it, of course we talk about it.
GUYON Yeah, what does he say?
RUSSEL Ah well, what we've talked about as we said publicly before is the Waste Bill and how it's connected with the Waste Bill and if Nandor were to go then how would it work with the rest of the List and all that kind of stuff that needs to be sorted out.
GUYON So no guarantee you'll be in before the election?
RUSSEL No.
GUYON Let me take you to another one of your four founding principles that is democratic decision making. I mean there are two candidates ahead of you on the List, how democratic is it for you to have those two people stand aside so you can come into parliament, I mean that isn't the List that the public was presented with is it?
RUSSEL Well no we'd absolutely stick to the List that the public was presented with.
GUYON But there are two people between Nandor Tanchos and yourself?
RUSSEL Well if we did decided to do that…
GUYON The deal's been done though already hasn’t it?
RUSSEL This is a live discussion within the Green Party and you know we're not gonna around and tell people you’ve gotta do this and you’ve gotta do that…
GUYON So it's still possible that Mike Ward could come into parliament to replace Nandor Tanchos?
RUSSEL All I'm saying is that it's alive, it's a live discussion within the party, the way we do things is we're not gonna go round and bully people to do this and do that it's not the Green way of doing things. We'll follow the List that we put up at the last election which by law we have to anyway, but it's the right thing to do, you know people voted for us 120,000 people voted Green on that List, and we'll stick to that List.
GUYON Can I just ask you before I leave it who you think is gonna win the election?
RUSSEL Well you'd obviously looking at the polls National are in a pretty strong position, I think you know it'll be hard not to come to the conclusion that National are forerunners to win the election just based on the polling so far.
GUYON Okay plenty there for Rawdon and the panel to pick up on.
RAWDON I'll give the panel an opportunity now to try and find a little bit more out about the future of the Greens - Jenni.
JENNI Yes Russel you talked a fair bit about the availability of alternative fuels, I'm just wondering now where you guys stand on the bio fuels bill given the opposition of the Parliamentary Commissioner to the Environment.
RUSSEL From the beginning I mean the Greens have had a long history of campaigning against bio fuels that involved competing with food crops or biodiversity loss or destruction of forests, so palm oil which is produced by destroying rain forests in Malaysia and Indonesia we've been against that, and also derived from maize. So we've made it very clear all the way along that we will only support the bio fuel bill continuing if there is a mandatory requirement to source the fuels from sustainable sources which means they can't compete with food and they can't destroy biodiversity, the fuels that are imported that is.
JENNI The problem is though there's no definition of sustainability in the bill is there, and sustainability's going to be different depending on the bio fuel.
RUSSEL Well but that’s exactly the discussion that we've been having with the Minister about it. Jeanette Fitzsimons has been having the discussion to change – I don’t know if you’ve looked at the bill …
JENNI Yes I have.
RUSSEL …but currently there's a kind of voluntary guide. We think it has to be mandatory and we want to make sure that the definition of sustainability is tight enough before we'll support it. I mean I saw your article this morning and I was a bit disappointed that we weren’t in it because actually we've been the key player in making sure that bio fuels are actually sustainable, that’s what we've been pushing. I'm really glad that you wrote the article it was good but Jeanette Fitzsimons is actually the key player for making sure that the bill gets fixed.
JENNI But there are some critics that say that there's no way you're ever going to get sustainability because it's different for every bio fuel and what about the criticism that with some bio fuels the overall carbon footprint's going to be greater than fossil fuels?
RUSSEL That’s absolutely true, that’s a fair criticism of a lot of bio fuels and so we need to look at them case by case, I mean I don’t know if you heard Mongo on radio just the other day, George Mongo the UK environmentalist and even he was acknowledging that tallow probably is a sustainable bio fuel or used frying oil could be a sustainable bio fuel. We need to look at it case by case, the key thing is actually to reduce our fuel demand, that has to be the number one thing we do.
RAWDON I don’t know a lot of details about the sustainability of certain bio fuels but what I do know is that as a potential voter choosing a party, once you’ve removed the bio fuels which seem to be most easily accessible at the moment is that it's just an idealistic world rather than a practical world is it not that you're chasing here?
RUSSEL How is it idealistic to want an optimal climate?
RAWDON Are we realistically going to be able to provide enough fuel by pursuing bio fuel?
RUSSEL Of course not. Bio fuels are only a tiny part of the solution, I mean the much bigger part of the solution is to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels and fuels in general, I mean that’s why you know in the early part of this show I was going on and on about public transport. I actually think that we've got these two big problems at once, we've got climate change and we've got rising oil prices or peak oil production whatever you want to call it…
JENNI Yes but the problem is Russel...
RUSSEL … we need to face them both at once.
JENNI … public transport for most people doesn’t exist in Auckland, it hasn’t existed in Auckland for 20-30 years it's not going to happen suddenly, and the other thing with bio fuels is we're talking about another 7 cents a litre at least on the price of petrol next year.
RAWDON And this brings in the economy.
JENNI The emission trading and …
CHRIS Yeah I can't help thinking over the last two or three months that the wheels have begun to come off the whole climate change issue, and I think it's because people are realising that it is going to cost them quite a lot of money, not only them but the businesses they work for. You’ve got you know experts coming out saying there could be 22,000 more people unemployed as a result of the Emissions Trading Scheme, now whether you believe that or not I guess the question that I would put to the Greens is this. Why is your party not doing more to emphasise the urgency, the danger that the world faces from climate change, it seems to me that the Greens of late have become almost immersed in the detail, you alluded to it just a few minutes ago with Jeanette Fitzsimons you know busy in there in the Select Committee trying to make all the pieces fit together. Well I guess I'm just asking for a response, as someone watching from the outside. When the Greens first came into parliament you had this sense of urgency, where is that, where is the reason to bear all these burdens coming from as far as the Greens …?
RUSSEL I honestly don’t believe we've lost the sense of urgency, it's true that we have got caught up in some of the detail so Jeanette's quite involved with the detail of the Emissions Trading Scheme and the bio fuels, trying to fix those pieces of legislation so they do what we want them to do which is reduce greenhouse emissions, but we are still pushing as hard as ever on climate change and peak oil issues cos they are the two greatest issues. The other side of it is that I think we also have to look at how the burden's gonna be borne, I think is one of the key issues that comes out of this. So you’ve got the dairy sector which is obviously being excluded which is a problem and you’ve also go you know people facing rising prices and what with fuel prices and electricity prices and what we say is okay so you need to invest heavily in public transport with fuel prices rising so you can get around and home insulation to help you with rising prices.
CHRIS I know and if people think hard about the detail they’ll come up with these initiatives from the Greens but look the last time the world really engaged on a massive effort to reduce waste to make sure that the economy was functioning you know for a clear and urgent purpose was during World War II when people grew their own vegetables, when people collected all the scrap metal, all the rubber, where there was a recycling you know on a scale that no one has seen since, that’s the level of urgency I'm talking about, those are the sort of plans I would have thought a Green Party would have been advancing to try and make people understand that the costs they're being invited to bear are because of the seriousness of the dangers that people face.
RUSSEL I mean I agree with you.
JENNI So I guess we'd now would like to see your economic policy. We've got difficulty with food prices, fuel prices, mortgage prices, how would you if you were Prime Minister tomorrow fix that and we need a quick fix?
RUSSEL Well the first thing is sadly there actually isn't a quick fix, like you might want a quick fix and we all want a quick fix but actually there is not simple quick fix.
JENNI Well when you get food riots in the streets you'll think of something.
RUSSEL Yeah and so the first thing is we have to change – I mean how do you transform an economy which is what we've gotta do, how do we make it sustainable, we have to move our economy in a sustainable direction.
CHRIS I'm going to interrupt you there Russel, I mean actually you're wrong in terms of quick fixes, I mean during World War II there was a real quick fix, you look at the speed with which America adjusted from peace time to war time, there was a massive change almost overnight, it can be done.
RUSSEL How are you gonna build a public transport system overnight?
CHRIS Well that’s my point, surely the Greens should be trying to build an environment in which that kind of mobilisation of everyone and a sharing of the burden by everyone is the crucial….
RUSSEL I totally agree, I mean we do need to do that, we should have started doing this stuff like ten years ago right and it takes time to do it. The question is how do we move our economy in a sustainable direction, we have to change the price signals cos we've got the price signals wrong currently, like there you know in terms of the external environment, externalities, we need to actually change what we measure because we only measure GDP we don’t measure progress in general and then we need to use government regulation on issues like energy efficiency and all the rest of it. We can transform our economy towards sustainability – Chris don’t you smirk at me – we actually have to take the steps now.
RAWDON Russel thanks for coming in, much appreciated.
